Change Your Mind (On the Reading of Junk)

[dmaul1114]

I think it's more just the tone. Calling some reading junk. The attack on graphic novels (and I don't even read them) not being literature.

Stuff like that kind of takes away from the topic at hand--what people gain from reading, whether that varies by what they read etc.

I'm not a big believer in reading--at least fiction reading--shaping a person's thought process, values, beliefs etc. But that's just my bias from growing up on movies, tv, sports and video games and still enjoying all those more than reading.

Hell, it's ridiculous I waste so much time here procrastinating work, talking about what's a very minor hobby with me. So with that realization I think I'll take a break from the site for a while, if not permanently.

[lilac_jive]

Originally Posted by dmaul1114

I think it's more just the tone. Calling some reading junk. The attack on graphic novels (and I don't even read them) not being literature.

Stuff like that kind of takes away from the topic at hand--what people gain from reading, whether that varies by what they read etc.

I'm not a big believer in reading--at least fiction reading--shaping a person's thought process, values, beliefs etc. But that's just my bias from growing up on movies, tv, sports and video games and still enjoying all those more than reading.

Hell, it's ridiculous I waste so much time here procrastinating work, talking about what's a very minor hobby with me. So with that realization I think I'll take a break from the site for a while, if not permanently.

Even if it's a minor hobby you're clearly talking about something you feel passionate about, which is always great. I hope you decide to come back (when you're done with work). I hope there isn't anything here other than you losing time that is making you take a break.

[Ea]

Originally Posted by dmaul1114

I'm not a big believer in reading--at least fiction reading--shaping a person's thought process, values, beliefs etc. But that's just my bias from growing up on movies, tv, sports and video games and still enjoying all those more than reading.

Once, after having relied on only one newspaper for a couple of months (years ago, early Internet period), I realised how much my opinions were shaped by that news source. SInce then I've made a point of accessing several news sources, and when I keep newspaper subcriptions, that I switch once in a while.

I am very certain that all that we take in shape our ideas, opinions, and ways of thinking.

[Jellby]

Originally Posted by Ea

At least that specific issue is only a problem in English (as far as I'm aware)

True. That's one of the reasons I can keep on shamelessly calling them "cómics" in Spanish (though there are other more genuinely Spanish words for them). However, there is still the connotation of "comical" in "comic", even if it's not exactly "cómico", "comique", "komisch" or "коми́ческий".

[desertgrandma]

Originally Posted by Ea

Good question. How would you define literature. I almost answered 'no' to your question, but then realised I wasn't certain that I wouldn't call graphic novels 'literature'. But on the other hand, it's also a thing into itself. You have to take the images into account when evaluating it, so graphic novels can't be compared 'straight' to written books. I do think though, that the stories being partly imagined visually does not make them worth less than written fiction. You 'read' images' just as much as you read words. Those images are not 'illustrations', they *are* the story in themselves. The best is created by visual artists who are no lesser artists than authors may be. As an example, I think it would have been possible to write Persepolis as a novel, but the artwork itself adds so much to the story (not that the artwork in Persepolis is outstanding - but it does relay so much that it would take many to tell).

Exactly.

Originally Posted by dmaul1114

I think it's more just the tone. Calling some reading junk. The attack on graphic novels (and I don't even read them) not being literature.

Stuff like that kind of takes away from the topic at hand--what people gain from reading, whether that varies by what they read etc.

I'm not a big believer in reading--at least fiction reading--shaping a person's thought process, values, beliefs etc. But that's just my bias from growing up on movies, tv, sports and video games and still enjoying all those more than reading.


Hell, it's ridiculous I waste so much time here procrastinating work, talking about what's a very minor hobby with me. So with that realization I think I'll take a break from the site for a while, if not permanently.

First of all, I was not "attacking" graphic novels. I made it very clear it was my own bias. I could care less what people read. I made a comment, tried to explain why I felt that way.

Your statement about your own bias towards reading because of growing up the way you did, speaks volumes.

There is a huge difference between someone who grew up with a passionate love of books, and someone who just "isn't a big believer in reading fiction".

As for taking a break from this site? I haven't found anything in this thread thats even came close to being objectionable. Except for the op's link to the article.

No one has 'flamed out', and I haven't even gotten my stick out.

[kennyc]

The think I saw was a question about whether graphic novels could be considered literature. I think it's a very good question and that's what attracted my attention.

[desertgrandma]

Originally Posted by kennyc

The think I saw was a question about whether graphic novels could be considered literature. I think it's a very good question and that's what attracted my attention.

Yeah,........that was mine. It was a question. 'sigh.

[Ea]

Originally Posted by kennyc

The think I saw was a question about whether graphic novels could be considered literature. I think it's a very good question and that's what attracted my attention.

First, I wanted to write that, yes, it is certainly literature. But on second thought, I see two main trends in 'graphic novels'; one is a focus on the visuals, where the story to a degree simply exists for the sake of the artwork, for example works of Enki Bilal or François Schuiten and Benoit Peeters* (European artists has cultivated the artistry of visual storytelling for adults for many years, the concept already has a niche here) and a second trend where the images is overall less ... 'artistic' (for lack of better words) such as Persepolis and Maus.

But... If you ask me if 'comics' can have literary value I would say that they most certainly can. I think it can be called 'literature'. And if not, then we should call it 'art'.

*They happen to be my favourites

[bill_mchale]

Originally Posted by Ea

I remember always having an interest (even of only slight) in 'good language' - but then when I tried writing a little bit of my own some years ago, it taught me so much about style that it's can't not notice anymore. And I've gotten much more critical - plus learned to enjoy books I'd never thought I'd like.

I think style can make a difference in the story, but by and large, the style should be such that it highlights the story. If the style calls attention to itself however, I generally find it very annoying.

Sometimes I feel reading 'good' books takes just that little extra bit of energy - but when I do read them, the over-all experience is better and often make it up to me. Just like when you've waten junk food and get hungry again soon after, compared to a well-prepared, nutritious and tasty meal.

Ummm... I think you are eating the wrong junk food. I dare you to eat an 8 oz burger and fries and be hungry faster than if you had eaten an equivalent volume of salad.

To me, the purpose of a novel is to tell a story. I judge a book by how well it accomplishes that goal.

--
Bill

[dmaul1114]

Originally Posted by lilac_jive

Even if it's a minor hobby you're clearly talking about something you feel passionate about, which is always great. I hope you decide to come back (when you're done with work). I hope there isn't anything here other than you losing time that is making you take a break.

Oh yeah, this thread didn't drive me away or anything. Just made me realize I'm wasting a lot of time getting sucked into arguments over something that's a minor hobby for me.

That and I just get frustrated as I don't fit in with the membership here being a casual reader, relatively young, and not that impressed with e-ink. So I just end up having the same arguments about backlit screens, tablets etc. over and over and over and it's gotten stale.

Just not enough others here who aren't big fans of dedicated reading devices--which makes since given the name of the site I suppose. Though you'd think it was e-ink.com rather than mobileread given how prevalent the bashing of anything that isn't e-ink is.

Originally Posted by Ea

Once, after having relied on only one newspaper for a couple of months (years ago, early Internet period), I realised how much my opinions were shaped by that news source. SInce then I've made a point of accessing several news sources, and when I keep newspaper subcriptions, that I switch once in a while.

I am very certain that all that we take in shape our ideas, opinions, and ways of thinking.

Agreed. I was only referring to fiction. Reading news, opinion pieces, non-fiction etc. does shape views. I'm not sure reading fiction does--and people certainly shouldn't let fiction affect their views as it's just entertainment IMO.

I just thought it was silly that the linked article and some discussion etc. seemed to imply that a person is less intellectual for reading "junk" and not classic literature etc. Fiction is fiction IMO--some is much better than others--but that's subjective and I don't think personally that reading classic lit etc. is any sign of a persons intellect etc.

If you want to be an intellectual, get into science, research, and other intellectual topics and leave the literature for entertainment IMO. I basically view fiction reading the same I do movies, TV, video games etc. Entertainment/art, not something I do to expand my intellect. I expanded my intellect by getting a Ph D, and continue to expand it by through research, non-fiction reading, teaching others etc.

Originally Posted by desertgrandma

First of all, I was not "attacking" graphic novels. I made it very clear it was my own bias. I could care less what people read. I made a comment, tried to explain why I felt that way.

Your statement about your own bias towards reading because of growing up the way you did, speaks volumes.

There is a huge difference between someone who grew up with a passionate love of books, and someone who just "isn't a big believer in reading fiction".

As for taking a break from this site? I haven't found anything in this thread thats even came close to being objectionable. Except for the op's link to the article.

No one has 'flamed out', and I haven't even gotten my stick out.

Sorry if I misread you. Your post came across as kind of being an grandmother with the "Damn those young whipper snappers rotting their brains with comic books, movies, tv, and videogames! They should be reading!" type of vibe. Came across as a bit condescending in other words, if that wasn't your intent then I just misread it.

And again, this post didn't make me want to take a break. Just a continual realization that 31 year old casual reader who's more into movies, tv and video games shouldn't waste so much time on a site full of older book lovers wed to e-ink etc. If I'm going to waste time online I should focus it only on the hobbies I really love, and not a casual one like novel reading which is as much a way to get sleepy as it is a true hobby for me.

[Bilbo1967]

Originally Posted by dmaul1114

Oh yeah, this thread didn't drive me away or anything. Just made me realize I'm wasting a lot of time getting sucked into arguments over something that's a minor hobby for me.

That and I just get frustrated as I don't fit in with the membership here being a casual reader, relatively young, and not that impressed with e-ink. So I just end up having the same arguments about backlit screens, tablets etc. over and over and over and it's gotten stale.

Just not enough others here who aren't big fans of dedicated reading devices--which makes since given the name of the site I suppose. Though you'd think it was e-ink.com rather than mobileread given how prevalent the bashing of anything that isn't e-ink is.......

And again, this post didn't make me want to take a break. Just a continual realization that 31 year old casual reader who's more into movies, tv and video games shouldn't waste so much time on a site full of older book lovers wed to e-ink etc. If I'm going to waste time online I should focus it only on the hobbies I really love, and not a casual one like novel reading which is as much a way to get sleepy as it is a true hobby for me.

Well shit - you wandered into a forum where not everybody agrees with you. I bet that has never happened before to anybody in the history of the internet.

But, it's OK, because it's only because anybody who disagrees with you is a senile old fogey. Phew, thank God for you dynamic youngsters and your open minds. How on earth could people older than you who actually have e-readers as a serious hobby possibly dare argue with a person who actively dislikes mobile reading devices and doesn't even like reading.

I think that the exit is that way - bye now!

[desertgrandma]

Originally Posted by dmaul1114

Sorry if I misread you. Your post came across as kind of being an grandmother with the "Damn those young whipper snappers rotting their brains with comic books, movies, tv, and videogames! They should be reading!" type of vibe. Came across as a bit condescending in other words, if that wasn't your intent then I just misread it.

And again, this post didn't make me want to take a break. Just a continual realization that 31 year old casual reader who's more into movies, tv and video games shouldn't waste so much time on a site full of older book lovers wed to e-ink etc. If I'm going to waste time online I should focus it only on the hobbies I really love, and not a casual one like novel reading which is as much a way to get sleepy as it is a true hobby for me.

seriously. No...that wasn't my intent. Given our age difference, yes, we have a different perspective on reading, tv, movies and video games. Like you said......its all in how we're raised.

I am trying.... I will be reading "Maus" because of this thread.

I can appreciate the artwork involved as well as anyone.

I guess my true fear is......will the artwork evolve and get more intricate, will people need to 'read' less to understand the story?

Thats scary.

[dmaul1114]

Originally Posted by Bilbo1967

Well shit - you wandered into a forum where not everybody agrees with you. I bet that has never happened before to anybody in the history of the internet.

But, it's OK, because it's only because anybody who disagrees with you is a senile old fogey. Phew, thank God for you dynamic youngsters and your open minds. How on earth could people older than you who actually have e-readers as a serious hobby possibly dare argue with a person who actively dislikes mobile reading devices and doesn't even like reading.

I think that the exit is that way - bye now!

That's not what I meant. It would be pretty damn boring to post on a forum where everyone agreed with you!

What I meant is I feel silly wasting time arguing over a minor hobby. I already spend a ton of time--talking probably a couple hundred thousand posts across different sites over the 15 years or so I've been posting on websites--arguing about movies, music, video games, politics etc.

I like my Kindle. I like reading novels. But I don't LOVE it as a main hobby like most here, so my posts are probably more forum addiction than love of the hobby so I just realized I need to scale back on that front.

Not because people disagree. But because it's not a huge hobby and I don't really fit in here. Which leads to endless arguments, and the same arguments over and over with people who only want e-ink and have no interest in tablets etc. I'd more need a tech gadget forum with some discussion of e-reading, vs. an e-reading forum with some discussion of tech gadgets.

Originally Posted by desertgrandma

I guess my true fear is......will the artwork evolve and get more intricate, will people need to 'read' less to understand the story?

Thats scary.

Novels will never go anywhere. Movies have been around for a century or so, comic books nearly as long, and yet there are tons and tons of books coming out every year.

So no need to have that fear as it won't happen.

I don't think it scary anyway. In my view movies are the superior form of story telling anyway. But in anycase, written story telling will never die off or even majorly decline. There will always be a place for novels in the entertainment/arts spectrum.

[desertgrandma]

Originally Posted by dmaul1114

I don't think it scary anyway. In my view movies are the superior form of story telling anyway.

HA! Gotcha. Lets argue this point.

With a written story.....you usually know whats going on 'behind the scenes', in the different characters minds.....you can re-read a page...scan back and forth, to 'refresh' your memory....you make your own pictures, scenery.......etc.

With a movie, things move so fast. Theres no chance to reflect on what you've just seen......you need to be paying close attention or you miss out on the entire thing.

(Except perhaps, for "Dune"....that sucker dragged out until eternity.)

[dmaul1114]

I have no issue following most movies, and of course you can re watch them. Just 90-120 minutes for most, vs. much more time to re-read a book etc.

I just find it superior personally as I'm more in the camp that a story teller needs to get the story to you exactly the way the want you to experience it. Books leave too much to the imagination--but I know that's what you and others love about them.

With film you have the words (dialogue) but also the images, the voices, the emotions etc. portraying things as the director intends and most everyone watching it should have a similar emotional reaction on a scene by scene basis etc.

But that's just me. I'm a very visual person, and not very imaginative/creative so I get more out of a great movie than I do a great book--though I enjoy both.

Similarly, I hate abstract art. I want to see an artist get his message across to nearly everyone who sees it, not make something that gives different experiences to different people.

So that's kind of where I'm coming from on my appreciation of art, movies, books etc.