Amazon says 'will have to capitulate and accept Macmillan's terms'

[Lemurion]

Originally Posted by dharh

What I find sad and disgusting is that often the ebook uses a different editing process (person, whatever) than the printed book.

Ebooks have been the most notorious for spelling, mangled text. Sometimes on the first bloody couple pages. I can tell all they did was use a spell checker, grammar checker, and boom less than a minute per book.

I can only hope this gets better, but in the mean time Ive got various copies of the _same_ book (hardback,paperback,mass production,ebook) and each have different errors. They need to get a process down where all proofing takes place on the source file and the exact same copy goes to all the different finalization processes.

Ebooks should be the easiest, least error prone, cheapest way to sell a book. I understand that there are costs associated with making a book before it gets to the physical form, and that these costs are the majority of the costs. However, an ebook should never be equal to its physical equivalent. 10-20% cheaper is not asking for too much.

When you buy a hardback book you are essentially an 'early' adopter. You are paying a premium for a longer lasting book, perhaps more esthetically pleasing to you, and you are getting it soon after release. At least one of those is the same when buying the ebook version during this time. So as an early buying you can expect to pay a high price for an ebook just released.

When you buy a paperback you are giving up these things to get the book cheaper. You've waited while others have already read it, its not going to last as long, though its not mass market paperback so it can still last several reads if you aren't a freak with your books, and for book lovers its most definitely less esthetically pleasing. If a paperback book can be sold for cheaper so can then the ebook. While the cost of making the paperback is definitely not zero, the ebook version is near enough. From the time between hardback version to paperback the ebook has not cost nearly as much per physical book sold.

When you buy a mass market paperback you have essentially waited several years before buying the book. These things can split in half _during_ the first read. If you aren't careful the pages can come out of the book. Often you can buy whole series, or several books in a series, in a bundle for less than one of these books used to cost as hardback. At this point whats really going on is either the book has not sold enough and thus they are trying to eke out as much as they can at the cheapest cost possible. Or the book has sold well and they are using economies of scale to eke out as much as they can as the cheapest cost possible. Ebooks are perfect at this point. Selling 1 million ebooks for $3.99 a pop will garner much more profit than selling a few hundred thousand mass paperback books for $6.99 a pop.

I have been hoping that i'd be able to stop having to buy paperbacks altogether, but if an ebook is going to cost me the same then i'm going to have to stick with what i've been doing. Physical books have the added bonus of having a second hand market, which can often lower the price of getting a book in half, whereas ebooks do not. This has to be accounted for in the ebook business otherwise is doomed to marginal sales.

I agree with you - ebooks should be cheaper, and selling a million ebooks for $3.99 a pop could indeed be more profitable than selling a few hundred thousand mass market paperbacks. One problem right now is that if you sell three hundred thousand paperbacks (a huge number by today's standards) you will likely only sell 15,000 ebooks and that's a big seller in ebooks.

That which you only sell to 5% of your market does not give you economy of scale.

As for selling used paperbacks, I find very few places will give half cover for a used paperback - it's more like 10-15% and they try to sell it for half.

Still, your initial points are dead on.

[dharh]

Originally Posted by Lemurion

I agree with you - ebooks should be cheaper, and selling a million ebooks for $3.99 a pop could indeed be more profitable than selling a few hundred thousand mass market paperbacks. One problem right now is that if you sell three hundred thousand paperbacks (a huge number by today's standards) you will likely only sell 15,000 ebooks and that's a big seller in ebooks.

That which you only sell to 5% of your market does not give you economy of scale.

As for selling used paperbacks, I find very few places will give half cover for a used paperback - it's more like 10-15% and they try to sell it for half.

Still, your initial points are dead on.

Well yeah those are huge unreasonable sales numbers at the moment. We ebook readers, are after all, are early adopters. I gave those numbers mainly because ebooks in my opinion have a much higher change of getting 1 million sales, even on otherwise less popular titles, because they can be both cheaper to distribute (thus potentially cheaper to purchase) and much easier to buy.

As for the economies of scale. The point was (and I see I made it poorly) that with ebooks you don't need to sell alot to reach the benefits of economies of scale, lower costs of production, to be able to sell at a cheaper price, thus make more sales, thus ultimately make more profit. With ebooks there is no problem of material costs going up or down depending on circumstances, maximum profit potential is going to base solely on finding the price sweet spot (and of course selling a good book).

Finally for the second hand market, its less about being able to resell your purchased books, but more about buying books at half original price. Being a gamer, its even worse, often they buy games at 10% original price and resell the game for 95% new price.

[Xenophon]

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

Again, are you claiming that Apple have reverse engineered ADE? Apple is absolute death on people reverse engineering anything they do, and unless they have their reader cannot be ADE-compatible, and hence won't read any ADE-encrypted ePub's.

Really quite simple ><

We do know, right now. This is not something we need to speculate on...

So far as I can tell, you are the only person who has even mentioned the idea of Apple having reverse-engineered ADE. I certainly have not made that claim, nor has anyone else in this thread (IMHO; I'm sure they'll correct me if I'm wrong).

We all suspect (quite strongly!) that Apple will be using some other sort of DRM (probably FairPlay based). And, given past experience, that they won't be licensing that DRM to other companies (sigh!).

If they've held true to past form, they probably took a crack at arguing against DRM in the first place (for all the obvious good business reasons, not because they're "the good guys" in the DRM argument). But they probably lost that argument, and weren't prepared to push it hard enough to torpedo the deal. All of this would be entirely consistent with their history with the Music labels.

Please note: I make no claim that Apple is "championing the little guy" or "supporting us in the fight against DRM" or any such thing. They're engaged in good business in their own best interests. That's all. They're smart enough to see that DRM is not in the best-long term interests of Apple (for certain-sure) or of the publishers (highly likely). So they're likely to have taken a crack at the argument. But certainly not likely to have let it end the deal. And if publisher-required DRM gives them a short-term competitive advantage, they'll probably cry all the way to the bank... while continuing to figure out how to make it go away in the long term (for those same obvious good business reasons). And while carefully (and even truthfully!) blaming it all on the publishers.

Xenophon
(whose cynicism is probably showing about now)

[stustaff]

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

Again, are you claiming that Apple have reverse engineered ADE? Apple is absolute death on people reverse engineering anything they do, and unless they have their reader cannot be ADE-compatible, and hence won't read any ADE-encrypted ePub's.

Really quite simple ><

We do know, right now. This is not something we need to speculate on...

No I have never mentioned that even once? what are you actually reading?

I am saying ANYONE can create their own version of DRM on top of an Epub file, they can then allow other manafacturers to put the software into their devices so they are able to open that particular DRM Epub.

FOR EXAMPLE - Adobe created ADE they then gave sony the info so that so could make their devices copatible and able to open ADE protected EPUBS

Now what I am saying is that APPLE create a DRM for Epub called APL they then give sony the info so sony can make their device able to open a APL protected Epub.

we dont know that Apple wont allow other device manfacturers the ability to open APL protected Epubs, either way its just speculation.

simple..

[DawnFalcon]

Yes, if you're completely divorced from commercial reality.

Also, we know they're not working with the people who make the renderer for 99% of ePub's, Adobe. So they'd need to licence an entire different renderer and get other people to put it on their device. Riiiight...

[stustaff]

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

Yes, if you're completely divorced from commercial reality.

Also, we know they're not working with the people who make the renderer for 99% of ePub's, Adobe. So they'd need to licence an entire different renderer and get other people to put it on their device. Riiiight...

But you know that wont happen for a fact right?

I never said it was going to happen or even that it was likely, however given that ADE has set the bar for readability on various devices it may be that Apple decide they want something at least as good. maybe part of teh deal with publishers pushed for apple releasing the ability for other mnafacturers to be able to licence the renderer thus providing better leverage against amazon. it would certainly give the iBook site an advantage over Amazon. and teh publishers seem fine with that type of DRM as evidenced by them using ADE.

or as I suspect your device will have to run the iBooks program(itunes) to allow ou to read the books, that would mean that any future ebook or tablet running a full OS might be able to get the books anyway.

you keep pushing that Apple will lock down the books as much as possible but you dont know that really.

I can clearly see taht when the microsoft courier is released that iTunes will run on it and then... ibooks from Apple on there too?

who knows.

[DawnFalcon]

Um, there's basically no chance in hell that a whole new renderer is being shoehorned into the devices, no. For one thing, there's no space in most reader's firmware.

And I have said nothing except the clear fact they'll be using a propitiatory DRM system. There is no evidence whatsoever on anything else, including PC/Mac/iPhone readers for their format.

iBook as-announced is only for the iPad. It might not stay that way, but that IS what currently is announced.

[stustaff]

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

And I have said nothing except the clear fact they'll be using a propitiatory DRM system. There is no evidence whatsoever on anything else, including PC/Mac/iPhone readers for their format.

Well actually thats wrong you seem to have forgotten what you have already said! You not only said it would be proprietary(as quoted above) you also said it would be incompatible! heres the quote-

Quote:
Originally Posted by DawnFalcon
We already know they're using their own incompatible DRM, which speaks volumes.

I then said

Originally Posted by Stustaff

We don't know if it will be 'incompatible' drm yet do we?
for all we know Apple could make it available much like the adobe DRM is where you authorise different devices such as a sony reader or a PC so you can view the apple ebboks on them

I stand by my comments! WE DONT KNOW if it will be incompatible with other devices, for example maybe it will work on other devices that can have itunes on such as any tablet running a full OS like windows 7! Maybe Apple will make a renderer available and some manafacturers will use it! WE DONT KNOW.

you stated as a fact that they were using "incompatible DRM" and you dont know that to be true at all.

[tompe]

Originally Posted by stustaff

No I have never mentioned that even once? what are you actually reading?

I also read you saying that. Your "We just don't know yet so saying it wont be compatible with other devices is silly." I interpreted as meaning currently existing devices with currently existing firmwares.

[stustaff]

Originally Posted by tompe

I also read you saying that. Your "We just don't know yet so saying it wont be compatible with other devices is silly." I interpreted as meaning currently existing devices with currently existing firmwares.

it is silly for all we know from release it will be compatible with existing devices with existing firmwares!(although I think its fair to say that for a more complicated device a download of a free program would also be fine, eg the sony readers work with Epub IF you DL the right firmware)

I think you were reading 'devices' as only eink readers?

By devices that an apple DRM ebook may be available to work on from day one(pottentially requiring the free DL) i mean as I said earlier
my tablet PC with win Xp?
my iphone
My home PC/Mac
Archos 9
etc

to say that it wont be compatible with any other devices IS silly as we dont know yet.

[tompe]

Originally Posted by stustaff

to say that it wont be compatible with any other devices IS silly as we dont know yet.

I read your statement as saying it would be compatible with all current EPUB devices. If you meant any device I would have expected you to write "compatible with any other device". Obviously it was a mis-understanding. I just wanted to explain that it was not a strange mis-understanding.

[DawnFalcon]

Originally Posted by stustaff

Well actually...

Since I don't think you're that stupid, I have to assume you're a troll. *plonk* (hint: look up *plonk*)

[stustaff]

Originally Posted by tompe

I read your statement as saying it would be compatible with all current EPUB devices. If you meant any device I would have expected you to write "compatible with any other device". Obviously it was a mis-understanding. I just wanted to explain that it was not a strange mis-understanding.

Well it is a bit of a strange misunderstanding as I never mentioned 'current epub devices once' I said 'other devices every time.

in fact your suggestion that you would have expected me to write "compatible with any other device" IS pretty much exactly what i said.

But misunderstandings can happen I suppose.

I mean dawn falcon keeps asking if people mean 'reverse adobes ADE DRM' but no one ever mentioned that either.

Anyway lets move on, or focus on the point.

Just because Apple are releasing tehir own DRM does not mean that it will be as DawnFalcon put it 'incompatible DRM' (hmm maybe she meant incompatible with existing epub eink devices with existing firmwares?) it is pretty likely IMO that saying it will be incompatible with other devices is silly because we dont have any details yet. that is all.

[stustaff]

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

Since I don't think you're that stupid, I have to assume you're a troll. *plonk*

Im trying to have a discussion with you, I dont think your reply is really useful at all! I find it pretty insulting.

What exactly do you think i posted that implies in your opinion that I am stupid?

[Dr. Drib]

Please calm down, you two.

Read our POSTING GUIDLINES, and take a break from the computer.


Don
(Moderator)