Amazon says 'will have to capitulate and accept Macmillan's terms' - Page 21

DawnFalcon · 02-06-2010, 01:25 PM

HarryT - And the Kindle site is selling directly to the UK. It even has a UK price setting!

So...

zerospinboson · 02-06-2010, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

No, I wouldn't disagree with you at all about that; I'm in complete agreement that the large publishers have a monopoly over their books. My only point was that this is not an abnormal situation; it happens in all areas of commerce, so there's nothing unusual about it occurring in publishing, too. Are you suggesting that it's a bad thing?

Are you purposely being obtuse?

Again, my problem isn't with the monopolies, my problem is with the fact that the market is too concentrated around a few large publishers, who can set prices for their entire product line, who can strong-arm authors, etc. And sure, it's strictly speaking legal to do so for them, but the more concentration, the harder it is to avoid, and the easier it is for them to do so without being punished for it because people will move to other publishers.

Lemurion · 02-06-2010, 03:46 PM

I think one reason people are getting so worked up over this is because there are several things happening simultaneously, and different people are focusing on different aspects.

We have Macmillan wanting an agency model
We have Macmillan wanting to raise Kindle prices of new release hardcover bestsellers.
We have Amazon delisting almost all Macmillan books (both paper and electronic) as part of the negotiations.

Note that I consider the agency model a separate issue from price, because Macmillan could have chosen to go with $9.99 best seller pricing with the agency model if they had wanted to. They would never want to, but they could have done so.

Different people are taking their stance based on which aspect is most important to them, and as most people on this site are ebook buyers, many are focusing on the increase in Kindle prices. It's important to note though, that for people who don't own Kindles, $14.99 for the ebook of a new hardcover bestseller may actually be less than they currently pay; or at least very close to the current price.

These people may find it hard to get worked up about the intrinsic evil of making someone else pay the same as they do for a given product.

As for the agency model, that moves pricing out of the retailer's hands and does decrease the ability for consumers to comparison shop. Having said that, with the current closed shop model where one has to own a Kindle to shop at the Kindle Store, and by doing so lose the ability to buy most bestsellers anywhere else; or have to have a Nook to shop at Barnes and Noble. Only people with ePub compatible devices can really shop around, and they are cut out of both the Kindle and Nook stores.

Finally we have the people who are primarily concerned with Amazon's tactic of delisting books. They are more concerned about the effect on authors, especially the long term effect.

All these concerns are valid, and not everyone agrees on what is going to be best for the industry in the long term. Everyone can agree that lower prices for consumers are better from a consumer perspective, but they may not agree with how low the price can go and still be sustainable.

Deneb · 02-06-2010, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

No, I wouldn't disagree with you at all about that; I'm in complete agreement that the large publishers have a monopoly over their books. My only point was that this is not an abnormal situation; it happens in all areas of commerce, so there's nothing unusual about it occurring in publishing, too. Are you suggesting that it's a bad thing?

That' a weird raesonning and a dangerous one for me: it happens elsewhere, it's not sanctionned there so it's a good thing if it happens here?
Monopoly is a bad thing, wherever it happens. it's not because it's allowed to keep on going somewhere that it becomes legit or good or normal.

bgalbrecht · 02-06-2010, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lemurion

Note that I consider the agency model a separate issue from price, because Macmillan could have chosen to go with $9.99 best seller pricing with the agency model if they had wanted to. They would never want to, but they could have done so.

Personally, this is the issue I get worked up the most about, because it means that the publisher is setting the price, not the retailer. Since the online and bricks and mortar retailers are willing to have loss-leaders with hardcover books, we will undoubtedly see ebook prices for these books be higher than the HB because the publishers won't make any attempt to price match. MacMillan's CEO has been railing against the bestseller price wars, and the low price ebooks, so we know that his policy is not to price match. Also, MacMillan and the other publishers going to the agent model already have a history of not lowering ebook prices when lower priced paper editions are released. I personally don't think MacMillan would have ever promised to lower ebook prices to as low at $6.99 if Amazon had signed the new contract without a fight.

If a retailer believes they are able to make the profits they want by discounting their merchandise, the consumer benefits. As far as I can tell, the agent model prevents the retailer from doing any discounting at all. I don't see how that benefits the consumer at all. Perhaps if all the publishers switch to agent model (and I really hope they don't), the only way you'll get to buy ebooks at a discount is through something like the Fictionwise and Books on Board rebate systems.

JSWolf · 02-06-2010, 06:10 PM

Here is why I do not believe that McMillan is being honest with us.

Take the eBook Ender in Exile. It's $9.99. The book is also available as a mass market paperback.

http://www.amazon.com/Ender-in-Exile...5497565&sr=1-1

So why is the eBook $9.99 if prices are supposed to be $5.99?

tompe · 02-06-2010, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Here is why I do not believe that McMillan is being honest with us.

Take the eBook Ender in Exile. It's $9.99. The book is also available as a mass market paperback.

http://www.amazon.com/Ender-in-Exile...5497565&sr=1-1

So why is the eBook $9.99 if prices are supposed to be $5.99?

Supposed to? Why?

And it is amazon that sets the price for what they are selling.

jmaloney · 02-06-2010, 06:20 PM

Also, I don't believe the new pricing structure has gone into effect yet. Was there any announcement as to when the new pricing was going to start?

Lemurion · 02-06-2010, 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Here is why I do not believe that McMillan is being honest with us.

Take the eBook Ender in Exile. It's $9.99. The book is also available as a mass market paperback.

http://www.amazon.com/Ender-in-Exile...5497565&sr=1-1

So why is the eBook $9.99 if prices are supposed to be $5.99?

Ask Amazon, they are the ones who set the price.

Macmillan said that they were going to the new model with dynamic pricing as of the end of March. It's still the beginning of February.

Let's wait until the policy is supposed to go into effect before complaining that they are not following it.

guyanonymous · 02-06-2010, 09:09 PM

Can we at least agree that the consumer would benefit from a more transparent and clear pricing structure/rational for most things we consume?

kennyc · 02-06-2010, 09:19 PM

No. Consumers benefit when there is competition.

bgalbrecht · 02-06-2010, 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lemurion

Ask Amazon, they are the ones who set the price.

Macmillan said that they were going to the new model with dynamic pricing as of the end of March. It's still the beginning of February.

Let's wait until the policy is supposed to go into effect before complaining that they are not following it.

The problem with that argument, as I see it, is that MacMillan is currently setting the wholesale ebook price to the various booksellers. If they wanted the retail ebook price to be comparable to the MMPB price, they would have already priced the wholesale ebook price to match. Given that Ender in Exile is a $14 ebook at MacMillan's website, $14 is what they think the ebook should cost, not $7.99.

MerLock · 02-06-2010, 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Here is why I do not believe that McMillan is being honest with us.

Take the eBook Ender in Exile. It's $9.99. The book is also available as a mass market paperback.

http://www.amazon.com/Ender-in-Exile...5497565&sr=1-1

So why is the eBook $9.99 if prices are supposed to be $5.99?

Yep, that is exactly what upsets me about e-books. Seeing an ebook costing more than a paper version.

kennyc · 02-06-2010, 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MerLock

Yep, that is exactly what upsets me about e-books. Seeing an ebook costing more than a paper version.

Agreed. It is just wrong.

Lemurion · 02-06-2010, 10:15 PM

The pricing part that always drives me nuts is when the dead tree version is in mass market for about $8 and the ebook is still hovering near $15-20. I can't stand it and won't pay those prices.

02-06-2010, 01:25 PM	#301
DawnFalcon Banned Posts: 2,094 Karma: 2682 Join Date: Aug 2009 Device: N/A	HarryT - And the Kindle site is selling directly to the UK. It even has a UK price setting! So... Last edited by DawnFalcon; 02-06-2010 at 01:38 PM.

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02-06-2010, 03:46 PM	#303
Lemurion eReader Posts: 2,750 Karma: 4968470 Join Date: Aug 2007 Device: Note 5; PW3; Nook HD+; ChuWi Hi12; iPad	I think one reason people are getting so worked up over this is because there are several things happening simultaneously, and different people are focusing on different aspects. We have Macmillan wanting an agency model We have Macmillan wanting to raise Kindle prices of new release hardcover bestsellers. We have Amazon delisting almost all Macmillan books (both paper and electronic) as part of the negotiations. Note that I consider the agency model a separate issue from price, because Macmillan could have chosen to go with $9.99 best seller pricing with the agency model if they had wanted to. They would never want to, but they could have done so. Different people are taking their stance based on which aspect is most important to them, and as most people on this site are ebook buyers, many are focusing on the increase in Kindle prices. It's important to note though, that for people who don't own Kindles, $14.99 for the ebook of a new hardcover bestseller may actually be less than they currently pay; or at least very close to the current price. These people may find it hard to get worked up about the intrinsic evil of making someone else pay the same as they do for a given product. As for the agency model, that moves pricing out of the retailer's hands and does decrease the ability for consumers to comparison shop. Having said that, with the current closed shop model where one has to own a Kindle to shop at the Kindle Store, and by doing so lose the ability to buy most bestsellers anywhere else; or have to have a Nook to shop at Barnes and Noble. Only people with ePub compatible devices can really shop around, and they are cut out of both the Kindle and Nook stores. Finally we have the people who are primarily concerned with Amazon's tactic of delisting books. They are more concerned about the effect on authors, especially the long term effect. All these concerns are valid, and not everyone agrees on what is going to be best for the industry in the long term. Everyone can agree that lower prices for consumers are better from a consumer perspective, but they may not agree with how low the price can go and still be sustainable.

02-06-2010, 06:10 PM	#306
JSWolf Resident Curmudgeon Posts: 79,654 Karma: 145864619 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Roslindale, Massachusetts Device: Kobo Libra 2, Kobo Aura H2O, PRS-650, PRS-T1, nook STR, PW3	Here is why I do not believe that McMillan is being honest with us. Take the eBook Ender in Exile. It's $9.99. The book is also available as a mass market paperback. http://www.amazon.com/Ender-in-Exile...5497565&sr=1-1 So why is the eBook $9.99 if prices are supposed to be $5.99?

02-06-2010, 06:20 PM	#308
jmaloney Connoisseur Posts: 95 Karma: 800 Join Date: Nov 2009 Device: Sony Reader Touch	Also, I don't believe the new pricing structure has gone into effect yet. Was there any announcement as to when the new pricing was going to start?

02-06-2010, 09:09 PM	#310
guyanonymous Guru Posts: 692 Karma: 27532 Join Date: Dec 2007 Device: Ebookwise 1150 / 1200	Can we at least agree that the consumer would benefit from a more transparent and clear pricing structure/rational for most things we consume?

02-06-2010, 09:19 PM	#311
kennyc The Dank Side of the Moon Posts: 35,896 Karma: 119230421 Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Denver, CO Device: Kindle2; Kindle Fire	No. Consumers benefit when there is competition.

02-06-2010, 10:15 PM	#315
Lemurion eReader Posts: 2,750 Karma: 4968470 Join Date: Aug 2007 Device: Note 5; PW3; Nook HD+; ChuWi Hi12; iPad	The pricing part that always drives me nuts is when the dead tree version is in mass market for about $8 and the ebook is still hovering near $15-20. I can't stand it and won't pay those prices.