Confessions of a Book Pirate

[sabredog]

Every time these threads pop up regarding online piracy of ebooks, the same arguments for and against always appear.

None of that is wrong of course!

However the two overriding issues that strongly affect ebook piracy that I see are as follows;

1. DRM - Yep, pesky DRM which now can be circumvented by those of a technical bent and with the right tools and knowledge to do so. Removal of DRM as per the Baen model would allow purchasers of an ebook to move that ebook between ereaders for the lifetime of the purchaser, not the lifetime of the online bookstore it was purchased from. Afterall, if my local Dymocks store went bust, I do not replace my purchased paperback with another copy from a store still trading!

2 Geographical Restrictions - This nasty and more recent impediment is to me even worse than DRM. If publishers were truly worried about reduction of sales this stupid impediment would be the first to go. Who thought of this? A bespectacled cardigan wearing pen pusher buried deep in the accounting section (no disrespect to that profession, my father is a retired accountant) or an IP lawyer? I understand some of this "may" be caused by the domestic restrictions of individual governments and lobby groups determined to protect their own interests, but come on! Recently I tried to purchase the latest Starfist novel from Fictionwise in MOBI format but was denied the sale because of GR, so a quick visit to Diesel resulted in a successful purchase of the same book in same format. Two shops and two policies on the same book?

Removal of this restriction will go a long way to reduce the need for a lot of readers to turn to the darknet for copies they want to buy but cannot. I know I have done just that and recently as well.

I am sure once publishers remove both these outdated and unnecessary restrictions from ebooks as well as keep the cost down to a fair price, perhaps 10-15% less than the dead tree version, sales would be better. This will not stop piracy per se, as there are ALWAYS people who undertake piracy and trying to stop that is akin to one person plugging leaking holes in a dyke. It would well be a win-win for everyone.

Those people who disregard the Baen model really need to see why it works. No DRM, no geographical restrictions and choice of any format, any time works for me every time.

This is the way ahead, not restrictive business practices the like of those of the music/entertainment industry who are still struggling to come to terms with the fact their long held business model is outmoded in the 21st century. Evolution is the key to survival.

Cheers

SD

[jgsmith]

This discussion would make a lot more sense if it were possible to stop digital copying. Newsflash! It isn't. I'm NOT saying its right, only that this is the reality in which we live. There will be those that complain, and those who deal with it and adapt. Some things will be better, and some will be worse. The future belongs to those who accept change and move on.

Jim

[bookwurm70]

Originally Posted by calvin-c

If it's not for sale as an ebook, buy it in paper-or don't buy it. If it's not for sale in either format, then yes-I'd say you have a right to get it where ever you can. (If it's not for sale in any format then there's no possible sales for the owner to lose, therefore no loss to the owner can occur.)

I live in a place where it is very difficult to get English books, so for me, buying ebooks IS my only option. I have tried the route of emailing publishers, asking them to sell books in ebook format and have met with no response or bordering-rude responses. I can totally understand going to the dark side in these circumstances.

I have never obtained a book illegally, although I will confess to dedrming books. It is has solved some problems in obtaining books: I am now able to buy books not available in the format I use and convert them. I am still paying for these books and I will not upload them, sell them, or loan them to anyone (besides, I only know 2 or 3 people who read electronic books). So, in my case, instead of losing money publishers are actually gaining money by my purchase of formats I cannot read on my current ereader.

[PKFFW]

Originally Posted by Moejoe

*sigh*

You may as well have just written 'Please don't read my works because I consider most of you thieves. Please, please, target audience, please note my name and make sure that you never, ever read my stuff again.' You may have consulted lawyers, you may be able to write a thousand books on the subject, but you really don't get what's happening at all.

See, and here I was thinking his post outlined how he dealt with every common and possibly justifiable reason for ebook piracy.

1: Price - his books are reasonably priced.
2: Geo-restrictions - anyone can buy them from anywhere.
3: Unknown author/downloading for sampling - he gives away some books for just this purpose.
4: DRM - he has DRM free books.
5: Sharing - Obviously his DRM free books are completely shareable and I get the impression he would have no problem with friends sharing amongst friends rather than someone deciding to upload the book to every internent, anonymous, bestest buddy on the torrent sites.

What more could anyone want?

Besides simply wanting it for free because they feel entitled to have it for free?

Cheers,
PKFFW

[Guns4Hire]

Originally Posted by PKFFW

See, and here I was thinking his post outlined how he dealt with every common and possibly justifiable reason for ebook piracy.

1: Price - his books are reasonably priced.
2: Geo-restrictions - anyone can buy them from anywhere.
3: Unknown author/downloading for sampling - he gives away some books for just this purpose.
4: DRM - he has DRM free books.
5: Sharing - Obviously his DRM free books are completely shareable and I get the impression he would have no problem with friends sharing amongst friends rather than someone deciding to upload the book to every internent, anonymous, bestest buddy on the torrent sites.

What more could anyone want?

Besides simply wanting it for free because they feel entitled to have it for free?

Cheers,
PKFFW

I noticed all those things you posted too. But I think moejoe was probably referring to the end of his post regarding "and you can even pretend you are stealing it".

At least thats what I took from moejoe's post.

[netseeker]

Originally Posted by Dulin's Books

no this is where you are marking a difference that doesn't exist. it doesn't matter that its a digital file versus a printed form, you don't have permission to take it and you don't have permission to give it away to the multitudes because it's not yours.

The question was: How can copying an ebook without permission be parasitism if the owner still owns the original ebook? I didn't address giving away further copies to the multitudes. Hence your response did not target my question.

Anyway, i want extend the question: Given that we can't measure the harm or even prove that a harm occured, based on what crtiteria could one impose a penalty for making a copy of an eBook without permission? It seems that we have to value the "permission" (more precisely the absence of the permission) itself. What value would you concede such a permission? How can the value of such a permission be measured?

Originally Posted by Dulin's Books

Would it be right if you stole the book from a store, made a thousand paper copies, returned the book and then distributed the copies on the street corner?

no of course not and that is what is being done when pirating digital copies.

Of course it wouldn't be right! Anyway, the analogy does not work because you would have to steal the physical object - the book - first. Additionally you assume the redistribution of the copies - i didn't.

[charleski]

Originally Posted by PKFFW

See, and here I was thinking his post outlined how he dealt with every common and possibly justifiable reason for ebook piracy.

1: Price - his books are reasonably priced.
2: Geo-restrictions - anyone can buy them from anywhere.
3: Unknown author/downloading for sampling - he gives away some books for just this purpose.
4: DRM - he has DRM free books.
5: Sharing - Obviously his DRM free books are completely shareable and I get the impression he would have no problem with friends sharing amongst friends rather than someone deciding to upload the book to every internent, anonymous, bestest buddy on the torrent sites.

What more could anyone want?

Besides simply wanting it for free because they feel entitled to have it for free?

Cheers,
PKFFW

I think it's MoeJoe who doesn't get what's happening here.

[llreader]

Originally Posted by calvin-c

Hmm, so if I *can* steal your car it's OK to do so?

Right might be an artificial concept (I, and many philosophers disagree, but numbers don't make us right), but they are the foundation of civilized society.

No, what he said is that rights are socially constructed. Not all societies recognize the concept of "property", or restrict it to specific categories of "entities" (physical or otherwise).

[Pardoz]

Originally Posted by sabredog

However the two overriding issues that strongly affect ebook piracy that I see are as follows;

DRM and geographical restrictions are two huge ones, but I'd argue that there's a third that's as important as either: availability. A huge percentage(from what I've seen, a commanding majority, at least in fiction) of what's out there is scanned copies of books that simply aren't available in electronic form, and a good percentage of those aren't available new in any format, paper or digital - The Real Caterpillar comments on this in the interview linked above.

[BearMountainBooks]

Originally Posted by ShellShock

I don't understand the justification for copyright extending beyond the death of the author, and I think there is a moral argument for being able to copy books where the author is no longer alive to be deprived of any royalties. It is not clear to me why an author's descendants should benefit from the sale of works which they had no hand in producing.

But by that logic, you wouldn't allow the children to inherit money, houses or anything else--because they had no hand in producing those things. The author probably feels pretty strongly that she wants her children to benefit from her work--whether that is passing along money or copyright to be used as the children are able. In some cases this may mean the children are able to sell film rights--what if the author dies young? What if the children are small and need the income from the books to survive? Moral suddenly becomes necessity.

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by Pardoz

DRM and geographical restrictions are two huge ones, but I'd argue that there's a third that's as important as either: availability. A huge percentage(from what I've seen, a commanding majority, at least in fiction) of what's out there is scanned copies of books that simply aren't available in electronic form, and a good percentage of those aren't available new in any format, paper or digital - The Real Caterpillar comments on this in the interview linked above.

Quite right. And I suspect that some people who have gone to a week's work scanning and proofing a text may "darknet" said text in order to save other people that week's work.

In the end, those people who scream author's right aren't talking the economics of it, but the control aspect. Mine! Mine! I rule on what happened to it, and the world will bow to my power over the work.

Look at the Google orphan work hoo-rah. If the author's guild had really cared about orphan works, and the revenue attached to them, they could have set up a deal with the publishers themselves. But they weren't.

The sad thing about it is if you had people scanning their favorite obscure works, and proofing them, for free, why publishers and the guild wouldn't take advantage of all that free labor is beyond me. You mean to tell me you can't make money off of free product? But I've had various small publishers here state that since they couldn't control the timing, they couldn't use the free product.

No idea of a Guild website for orphan works, common for most publishers, where scanners could post their work, and let it be resold for a modest fee (say $5 per book)? Splitting it with the publisher for an agreed to fee? On properties not generating a dime otherwise to all? Instead of prosecuting, profiting? Getting the moral high ground like Baen?

Of course not! Authors and publishers might lose some control! And that seems to be more important that money...

[BearMountainBooks]

Originally Posted by sabredog

Every time these threads pop up regarding online piracy of ebooks, the same arguments for and against always appear.

None of that is wrong of course!

However the two overriding issues that strongly affect ebook piracy that I see are as follows;

1. DRM - Yep, pesky DRM which now can be circumvented by those of a technical bent and with the right tools and knowledge to do so. Removal of DRM as per the Baen model would allow purchasers of an ebook to move that ebook between ereaders for the lifetime of the purchaser, not the lifetime of the online bookstore it was purchased from. Afterall, if my local Dymocks store went bust, I do not replace my purchased paperback with another copy from a store still trading!

2 Geographical Restrictions - This nasty and more recent impediment is to me even worse than DRM. If publishers were truly worried about reduction of sales this stupid impediment would be the first to go. Who thought of this? A bespectacled cardigan wearing pen pusher buried deep in the accounting section (no disrespect to that profession, my father is a retired accountant) or an IP lawyer? I understand some of this "may" be caused by the domestic restrictions of individual governments and lobby groups determined to protect their own interests, but come on! Recently I tried to purchase the latest Starfist novel from Fictionwise in MOBI format but was denied the sale because of GR, so a quick visit to Diesel resulted in a successful purchase of the same book in same format. Two shops and two policies on the same book?

Removal of this restriction will go a long way to reduce the need for a lot of readers to turn to the darknet for copies they want to buy but cannot. I know I have done just that and recently as well.

I am sure once publishers remove both these outdated and unnecessary restrictions from ebooks as well as keep the cost down to a fair price, perhaps 10-15% less than the dead tree version, sales would be better. This will not stop piracy per se, as there are ALWAYS people who undertake piracy and trying to stop that is akin to one person plugging leaking holes in a dyke. It would well be a win-win for everyone.

Those people who disregard the Baen model really need to see why it works. No DRM, no geographical restrictions and choice of any format, any time works for me every time.

This is the way ahead, not restrictive business practices the like of those of the music/entertainment industry who are still struggling to come to terms with the fact their long held business model is outmoded in the 21st century. Evolution is the key to survival.

Cheers

SD

A lot of us Indies have no DRM books available (either via Kindle or smashwords). We have no geographical restrictions. And yet, two weeks ago an Indie author posted that she found her book posted on a pirate site (she wasn't positive all of the book was there because she didn't want to download due to fear of virus, etc.) Most indies also price their books under 5 dollars. If obtained from smashwords, there isn't even an international fee charged like there is for amazon. Yet, we authors know it is going to happen.

As for the argument that a person who reads a book may talk about it and may generate more sales...they may also only generate more piracy. "making up" for the theft by having someone else buy it doesn't make up for the "wrong." If I steal a kindle and generate four legit purchases, I'm pretty sure I shouldn't have stolen the kindle in the first place. And the person or corporation out the kindle is still out the kindle and is unhappy.

The problem is that some people don't value content--books, news or whatever. They want it to be free and if they can find it, it is "someone else uploaded it. I'm just reading it." Swizel it anyway you want. We authors try very hard to provide our audience with our books. We work our ass off to get published in whatever form. Most authors want their books to have no geographical restrictions. Some want DRM--because they fear the attitudes that books "want to be free."

There is no solution. I'm not going to change anyone's mind that believes it is okay to make a copy of a book without paying the author. I'm not really trying to change minds--just state my one opinion!!!

Good discussion, everyone.

Maria

[tnronin]

Originally Posted by Randolphlalonde

Here are the facts:

The law as it has been interpreted for laymen by legal professionals simply states: Copyright the exclusive right to make copies, license, and otherwise exploit a literary, musical, or artistic work, whether printed, audio, video, etc.: works granted such right by law on or after January 1, 1978, are protected for the lifetime of the author or creator and for a period of 50 years after his or her death.

That means what I've copyrighted is mine. By law that body of work has been made into an object, otherwise termed as "intellectual property". There are no legal differences stipulated for digital content where eBooks are concerned. This is the law in the US, Canada, the UK and elsewhere. There is no disputing this outside of a court of law.

I have the right to decide how and where my work is distributed until I assign rights to another party (publisher, distributor, etc...).

Anyone who infringes upon that law is subject to punishment by the legal system of their country and in other countries with consideration to international treaties. Individuals who break copyrights may be imprisoned, fined by the state and individuals who file claims in pursuit of compensation.

---

The more personal side:

My eBooks pay the rent. If people didn't pay a fair price for them, then I would have to seek other employment and I wouldn't have time to write 3-5 books a year. I _may_ be able to get 1 out in 12 months because I'd be working for someone else.

In my case, the illegal distribution of eBooks wouldn't help one bit. People don't buy my books in print, they're not in stores, they buy eBooks. I don't charge much for my eBooks, certainly not unfair prices (everything is under $10.00 and the non-DRM versions on Smashwords are all $4.99 or less, I even have two free books there). Buying those books keeps me in spam and cheesy macaroni so I can write more books, benefiting my readers. They know that, and they don't mind paying the cover. In a few hundred emails I've never had anyone complain about price.

So, there are the legal and personal facts that I believe in. Don't bother arguing on the legal points with me, I've already done my homework on this, consulted a lawyer and could write a book on the topic. I don't, because it would be really, REALLY boring and I don't want to become known as "That Copyright Guy". I'd rather be known as "That EBook Writer" for entertaining people who prefer to read books on a screen, instead of a dead tree.

If you're really looking for something free, you can grab one of the free titles I've posted on Smashwords. You can even pretend you're stealing it.

I have not read the ENTIRE thread but this post is a good one IMHO. You sound like the type of author who understands the reality of the technology. I will not INTENTIONALLY download a pirated book. Nor I am a not going to buy a book for the same price of a paperback/hardback which is in electronic format. That is simple, no if ands, or buts. Until the publishers get it thru their thick skulls, just as you evidently have, there will be the piracy. Certainly there are people that will do it regardless of the price. Heck you could charge .99 and there will still be pirates. In my mind the issue is the cost of what you actually get. I read stories of people that have lost many books from Amazon when they decided to not carry the book anymore. I would be one angry person if that happened to me. Which is why I use the Sony ereader. If I pay a premium for a product I expect use from it. It would be nice if someone came up with a method of allowing someone to "loan" a book. And they may have done so, I'm still new to this stuff.

Anyway, good thread. The above is just my two cents, I hope I have not offended anyone, that was not my intent. It seems that there may be people reading this that will base some business decisions (pricing) based upon the responses here. I want to and will pay for the work of the authors, BUT I will not pay the same price for something that is not tangible.

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by BearMountainBooks

But by that logic, you wouldn't allow the children to inherit money, houses or anything else--because they had no hand in producing those things. The author probably feels pretty strongly that she wants her children to benefit from her work--whether that is passing along money or copyright to be used as the children are able. In some cases this may mean the children are able to sell film rights--what if the author dies young? What if the children are small and need the income from the books to survive? Moral suddenly becomes necessity.

What about the other 99+% of the people out there? They don't get royalties for their work. How do they take care of their kids?

Maybe I'm just a blockhead, but going forth in the world and making one's own way in the world is one of the joys of life. Should you deny your children's right to make their own life, good or bad; to be able to say "I did this with my own abilities"? I've known several multi-millionaire's children my age, and their greatest concern has been to find a way to show that they had talent too, and were not just propped up by Grandpa's wealth....

[BearMountainBooks]

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

What about the other 99+% of the people out there? They don't get royalties for their work. How do they take care of their kids?

Maybe I'm just a blockhead, but going forth in the world and making one's own way in the world is one of the joys of life. Should you deny your children's right to make their own life, good or bad; to be able to say "I did this with my own abilities"? I've known several multi-millionaire's children my age, and their greatest concern has been to find a way to show that they had talent too, and were not just propped up by Grandpa's wealth....

My point was that if it is fair to leave children money or a house, a copyright is essentially the same thing. The only difference perhaps, is that with a copyright you have "potential' for making money, whereas money is already money and a house is a house. A child could work to sell the film rights, the ebooks rights or continue to market the book, keep it in print, etc. The child may not be of working age either and a small royalty might mean a few hundred dollars every month or so.

Sure, there's an issue with gaining through inheritance versus working for what you earn/deserve, but in reality most books do not produce so very much money that children are at risk of living high off an author's profits.

I don't know any multi-millionaires or children of such. I don't even know any wealthy authors. Allowing the copyright to be owned by the children is just not a bad thing and in no way justifies pirating copies.

Just my opinion of course.