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Old 01-16-2010, 02:41 PM   #31
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If I were addicted to alcohol I would have a disability. I would be an American with a Disability. The ADA must apply to anyone with a disability.

Should I sue because curbs and steps can make me fall and hurt myself? Who are you to say no. Bar stools are too high and unstable. What next? The list could go on and on.

ADA is not just "the law of the land" it is common sense. That may not be apparent to some. But, then, common sense is VERY lacking nowadays.

Law without compassion, understanding, and common sense will lead to a society controlled by threat, punishment, and ultimately violence.


"The NFB and ACB alleged that the Kindle DX was inaccessible to blind students and thus violated federal law."

And paper books are not?


The Kindle-ADA lawsuits may sound like a win to some, but to me it brings a great sadness. Common sense is a dying ember.

When the self righteous, left or right, rule people suffer.

If you feel that YOU are right, anything is permitted. In Iran and other places the "self righteous" stone women and hang gays.

The ADA is not always right. Once, people had a right to own slaves. That too was the "law of the land.”

Now, let loose the callow youth....



Common sense is a dying ember.
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Old 01-16-2010, 04:14 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by HorridRedDog View Post
basschick is right - "generic "one size fits all" laws never do fit all on either side of the political fence. a little common sense on either side would be nice."
And that is why we have the courts to make determinations with regard to the law.

In this case the law suit was settled between the parties. So no "one size fits all" solution was even applied.
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Originally Posted by HorridRedDog
I've met two legally blind people who used computers capable of reading what was under their cursor.

So what would have happened if the newly formed "Apple Computing Company" had been shut down for not creating a computer useable by the blind?
Has any company been shut down here?
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Originally Posted by HorridRedDog
Yes, now they are a large EVIL company and can afford to be forced into such a development. But not back then.
Why are you bringing up "large, EVIL companies". No one is arguing about large evil companies. It makes no difference.

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Old 01-16-2010, 04:16 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by CleverClothe View Post
Way to completely miss the point.

No one is saying that we should get rid of ADA.


Pretty much every post raising an issue with this settlement centres on the idea that the law suit is about "if I can't have it then no one should be allowed to have it" and you reckon vaughnmr has missed the point!



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Old 01-16-2010, 04:33 PM   #34
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If I were addicted to alcohol I would have a disability. I would be an American with a Disability. The ADA must apply to anyone with a disability.
I don't believe that is correct.

Firstly, I do not believe addiction falls under the definition of a disability.(at least here in Australia it doesn't and I'm pretty sure it doesn't in the USA either)

Secondly, in law, discrimination is only considered discrimination if it is based on certain things. For example it is not discrimination to refuse to hire someone if they can not type and you require someone with the ability to type. Addiction is not one of the things that is considered grounds for discrimination.(same as above, here in Australia it is that way and I'm pretty sure it is the same in the USA)
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Originally Posted by HorridRedDog
Should I sue because curbs and steps can make me fall and hurt myself? Who are you to say no. Bar stools are too high and unstable. What next? The list could go on and on.
You do not seem to have much understanding of the law, otherwise you would not have made these comments in the first place.
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Originally Posted by HorridRedDog
ADA is not just "the law of the land" it is common sense. That may not be apparent to some. But, then, common sense is VERY lacking nowadays.
When people use the term "common sense" like you continually do they usually mean "any ruling I don't agree with is lacking in common sense and any ruling I do agree with is made with common sense".

Is that what you mean?
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Originally Posted by HorridRedDog
"The NFB and ACB alleged that the Kindle DX was inaccessible to blind students and thus violated federal law."

And paper books are not?
Is that what was alleged? Remember, you are merely quoting a news source and not the actual suit in question.

I have no doubt you will find, if you bother to actually look at the suit itself, that what was alleged is that what the University was giving to the sighted students, free of charge, was inaccessible to blind students and, in conjunction, the University made no effort to give blind students something comparable.

That is a very much different thing in the eyes of the law.
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Originally Posted by HorridRedDog
The Kindle-ADA lawsuits may sound like a win to some, but to me it brings a great sadness. Common sense is a dying ember.

When the self righteous, left or right, rule people suffer.

If you feel that YOU are right, anything is permitted. In Iran and other places the "self righteous" stone women and hang gays.
So you are really comparing blind students wanting the same access and priveledges as sighted students to Iran stoning women and gays?

And you keep harping on about common sense!

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Old 01-16-2010, 04:57 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by HorridRedDog View Post
If I were addicted to alcohol I would have a disability. I would be an American with a Disability. The ADA must apply to anyone with a disability.
At least as of 2006, your assertion is incorrect. Alcoholism may be recognized as a professional "impairment" (and separately, it may be difficult to fire someone who is an alcoholic without generating a lawsuit), but courts rarely regard alcoholism as protected by the ADA. You're also not going to have much luck excusing misbehavior or establishing that your "disability" is permanent.

http://www.abanet.org/genpractice/ma...mar/labor.html


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Originally Posted by HorridRedDog
Should I sue because curbs and steps can make me fall and hurt myself? Who are you to say no. Bar stools are too high and unstable. What next? The list could go on and on.
If you fall on the sidewalk or curb, you can sue the city for failure to maintain it or other forms of negligence. Of course, if you can't prove fault or negligence, you may lose or have your case thrown out of court. That doesn't really have much to do with the ADA.

I.e. it's the job of the legislators and the judges to draw the line and determine whether the claim is meritorious.


Quote:
Originally Posted by HorridRedDog
"The NFB and ACB alleged that the Kindle DX was inaccessible to blind students and thus violated federal law." And paper books are not?
You are missing the point of the lawsuit.

Accommodations are already pretty much complete in the "paper" space. E.g. you need to make the course materials available in such a way that a disabled student can access them. If you have a professor or school that refuses to make those accommodations, then they will also be in violation of the ADA.

The claim is that without a few minor changes to make it more accessible, the Kindle provides sighted students with an advantage, namely electronic receipt of materials in a faster time frame, more portable access to course materials, etc. A counter-claim could be valid if it was demonstrated that the disabled students were not put at a disadvantage.

But again, I believe the problem is less that the application of the law is fundamentally wrong; rather, that it's politically ineffective and probably counter-productive, despite the short-term success.

"Common sense" is, at best, an ambiguous concept. A more rational person, and someone who is familiar with the basic concepts of the law, will likely recognize that no legislation can be drafted perfectly, and thus the application of the law will not be perfect either. In this case, you also have competing interests and varying interpretations of what is truly "fair" and the proper extent of the law. Rather than duke it out and have a court make a determination, the parties settled.

It's too bad this will result in an early termination of the pilot programs and has generated some ill will. Hopefully though it may encourage any ebook device manufacturers who are interested in the education market to add TTS and other accessibility features, or design models specifically for the disabled.
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Old 01-16-2010, 05:16 PM   #36
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"Why are you bringing up "large, EVIL companies". No one is arguing about large evil companies."

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Originally Posted by PKFFW View Post
I think you'll find that with attitudes like marks', a lawsuit is often the only way a disadvantaged group like blind people can get any concessions.

Yes the blind will need assistance in order to stand a chance of simply receiving the same standard of education as a sighted person. For a university to then actively give an added advantage to sighted students, without any attempt at giving any sort of comparable tool to the blind is simply illegal under Anti-Discrimination laws.
PKFFW
Are you changing your mind then? "to then actively give an added advantage to sighted students....".

Seems EVIL to me.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
"So what would have happened if the newly formed "Apple Computing Company" had been shut down for not creating a computer useable by the blind?"

"Has any company been shut down here?"

I'm sorry, did I say someone was shut down? "So what would have happened...."

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by nabrum View Post
Really? You had better re-READ and possibly comprehend(?) the post above yours. He says that the ACB might be p****d because the blind might not be buying $5K machines. Sounds like a Republican greed thing vs a "liberal" thing.
Tisk, tisk, more EVIL greedy companies.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by fjtorres View Post
So *no* students get free DXs...
Let's see, now:
Amazon got whatever publicity benefit they were going to get during the DX launch; they learned what they needed to learn about the higher-ed market, and they save a bit of cash.
And nobody will ever again dare *give* an ebook reader to students even as a test.
But the lawyers got paid nicely.
Yes, more greed and plotting by the EVIL Amazon company.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by dreadcptflint View Post
Nah fjtorres,

Amazon got a bunch of publicity and the appearence of being generous with out giving out DXs. They clearly got the big win out of the program. Not bad for a silly lawsuit.
Do you really see no hatred for big companies?

================================================== ======

Ok. You don't want the "sighted" students to have the use of the Kindle DX (even just in a study) if a blind, or legally blind, person can't use it.

Ok. What about lined notebooks for writing class notes in? Take them away too?


Let loose the callow youth....
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Old 01-16-2010, 07:19 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by HorridRedDog View Post
"Why are you bringing up "large, EVIL companies". No one is arguing about large evil companies."



Are you changing your mind then? "to then actively give an added advantage to sighted students....".

Seems EVIL to me.
Nowhere in any of the the quoted remarks does anyone mention an evil company.

In particular, I never mentioned any evil company. I was merely pointing out that without the law to force companies into doing something, the companies will not do so if there is no profit for them to do so. That is not evil, that is simply the nature of business.

I suppose it's easier to make out that anyone who disagrees with you thinks companies are evil though as that absolves you of any need to argue the merits of the case.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HorridRedDog
I'm sorry, did I say someone was shut down? [B
"So what would have happened...."[/B]
Oh sorry, you were asking "what would have happened if Apple had been shut down?"

In that case, your question is only relevant to the discussion if we were disussing what may happen if Amazon was to be shut down.

As we are not discussing that, your question is irrelevant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HorridRedDog
Do you really see no hatred for big companies?
Frankly no I don't.

However, even if there is "hatred for big companies" that does not mean anyone is arguing those companies are "evil". Personally I hate spiders. Can't stand the things and kill them whenever I see them in my house. That doesn't mean I think they are evil though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HorridRedDog
Ok. You don't want the "sighted" students to have the use of the Kindle DX (even just in a study) if a blind, or legally blind, person can't use it.
And again you miss the point entirely.

The law suit is not about blind people wanting to make sure sighted people can't use the Kindle. It is about ensuring that the blind people can as well.

Now, as Amazon and the Universities are not able, presently, to make the Kindle accessible to blind students, they have agreed to settle the matter by withdrawing the Kindles. That is the choice they have made instead of making the choice of simply adjusting the Kindle or making some other comparable technology available to blind students.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HorridRedDog
Ok. What about lined notebooks for writing class notes in? Take them away too?
Arguments such as this are either completely facetious or so inane as to make them not worth responding to.

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Old 01-16-2010, 08:04 PM   #38
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Pointless.


Let loose the callow youth....
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Old 01-16-2010, 09:59 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Bremen Cole View Post
I agree with PKFFW that the main issue was the "giving" of the Kindle's to students, but blind students not having the same access. What I don't understand is why they could not continue with the Kindle "give away" and instead give visually impared students a device that would give them the access as well.
Okay, which ereaders have TTS on their interface?
(Oh right, the Kindle *will* now. Progress!)

CleverClothe - Oh yes they were. Very clearly.
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Old 01-16-2010, 10:11 PM   #40
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Okay, which ereaders have TTS on their interface?
Only the Kindle (2 only, I think) and the Hanlin V5 clones... and I haven't listened to either of them
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Old 01-16-2010, 11:32 PM   #41
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Pretty much every post raising an issue with this settlement centres on the idea that the law suit is about "if I can't have it then no one should be allowed to have it" and you reckon vaughnmr has missed the point!



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And that is not the purpose of ADA. But nice try.
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Old 01-17-2010, 02:20 AM   #42
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And that is not the purpose of ADA. But nice try.
It's also exactly not what the law suit is about. But I doubt many posting here that are against the suit have even bothered to look into it and know what the suit is actually about.

So I'm not surprised you see vaughnmr as being the one that missed the point.

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Old 01-17-2010, 05:58 AM   #43
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Only the Kindle (2 only, I think) and the Hanlin V5 clones... and I haven't listened to either of them
No, neither of them do. They have TTS on the books, but not on the menu interface. I'm afraid you've missed the whole point of this dispute if you don't realise that.
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Old 01-17-2010, 07:13 AM   #44
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That's...pretty much what I thought. Bah.
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Old 01-17-2010, 09:17 AM   #45
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But let's face it - a blind student is going to need "sighted" assistance in order to study at university for all sorts of different reasons. That hardly seems like a very valid reason to deny Kindles to all the sighted students. It seems a bit childish - "if I can't use it, then I don't want anybody else to be able to, either".
But if the teacher says turn to location xxx and the blind student cannot do that, then there is a problem.
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