Geographic restrictions inside EU (?)

omk3 · 01-12-2010, 11:35 AM

I know it has been discussed to death, but I still haven't found a reasonable explanation. I (kind of) understand geographic restrictions, in that authors may sell distribution rights of their books to two or more publishers, each exclusively responsible for a region (or something like that). Silly and frustrating in the age of the internet, but there you go.

My question is, how can there be such restrictions inside the European Union? Wasn't the Union supposed to be all about free commerce among its members? Plus, correct me if I'm wrong, but the UK and Ireland are the only english-speaking countries inside the EU. So who would want exclusive distribution rights for say, Germany, or Greece, for an english-language book? For the few handfuls that will want to read the original instead of the translation?

All of this was triggered when I recently realized that some books in WHSmith, like Tolkien's, are only available in the UK. I can't get my head around this. Please tell me there is some logic behind all this that I'm missing. (and excuse the ranting

)

And a secondary question that may or may not be relevant.
I bought my prs-505 from Waterstones while I was in Greece, no problems.
Now the site informs me that the sony readers are only available for UK and Ireland customers. Sony Greece does not sell readers, and I don't see any clues that Sony UK send their products worldwide. In whose interests could this restriction be? And since it's a physical product, point of sale is the waterstones store, so what could be the problem? (sorry, I seem to go on and on. I'll shut up now - maybe all this should go to the vent and rant thread instead?)

Jellby · 01-12-2010, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by omk3

Plus, correct me if I'm wrong, but the UK is the only english-speaking country inside the EU. So who would want exclusive distribution rights for say, Germany, or Greece, for an english-language book?

Erm... Did I hear "Ireland" there?

I don't know if the market of English speakers living abroad or people learning English is large enough to deserve exclusive rights, too.

omk3 · 01-12-2010, 11:52 AM

Yes, sorry, sure, Ireland! (I tend to count them together with the UK, though I know no Irish people will like me for that

) My mistake and apologies.

Still, does anyone know of anybody having exclusive distribution rights for english-language books in non-english speaking countries? (except simplified educational editions of course)

Direct Ebooks · 01-12-2010, 01:17 PM

Many publishers, especially the smaller ones do have worldwide rights to their titles and this is often reflected in eBook stores.
The question of geographical restrictions is a frustrating one. we currently have no restrictions on our site, but this may change over time in order to get a better selection of eBooks.

aceflor · 01-12-2010, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by omk3

Yes, sorry, sure, Ireland! (I tend to count them together with the UK, though I know no Irish people will like me for that

) My mistake and apologies.

You just broke my heart. Ireland and the UK, not the same. at all.

Plus: Malta. small, often forgotten, english speaking, Memeber State of the EU.

No hard feelings

omk3 · 01-12-2010, 01:53 PM

No hard feelings at all, and thank you for correcting me. No offense to Irish people, and I never meant they are the same as the English. It's just, whenever I see any type of geographic restrictions, UK and Ireland are often paired as a market. (see Waterstones restriction I mention above)

Please don't make this thread about the Irish, or Malta, and again I apologize for my apparent ignorance (I was after all a bit angry while writing this and not thinking very clearly).

My question about free commerce within the EU and distribution rights in non-english speaking countries remains unanswered, and that's what this thread was supposed to be about, even if I managed to put my foot in my mouth...

aceflor · 01-12-2010, 02:00 PM

no no, don't worry.

And I never meant to imply you were ignorant.

But to answer your question: the exclusivity for english books in Germany, the Netherlands, and most of all Scandinavia is a very big deal since many do read in english in those countries.

And, on a lighter note, it is probably a big deal in Spain too, considering the amount of Residents (or not Residents) there coming from either Germany, the UK, the Netherlands or Denmark, to name a few....

When I visit a B&M Bookstore here in Germany, I am amazed by the amount of english and french books available.

So if paperbacks sell well, think of the potential for ebooks....

omk3 · 01-12-2010, 02:08 PM

Are these books from german publishers though? Do you know of anyone with exclusivity in these markets? If so, I guess it probably makes sense.
In greece too you can find a lot of english language books, but they are just imported as far as I know - greek publishers only handle translations or again, simplified educational material in english.
Basically my question probably boils down to this, if something is available in one EU country, shouldn't other EU countries have access to it?

Mike L · 01-12-2010, 02:32 PM

OMK3,

You've made some good points. But I think one of the reasons for the situation is historical. Up until a while ago, British publishers typically purchased "British and Commonwealth rights" - and before that it was "British and Empire rights", a throwback to the old imperial days. I suspect it's just an old habit that persists.

But I take you point that the EU is supposed to put an end to that kind of practice. I don't know the reasons behind it.

Another point. You say: authors may sell distribution rights of their books to two or more publishers, each exclusively responsible for a region.

What's more likely to happen is that the author sells the rights to a publisher; the publisher publishes the book in their home territory, and then try to sell on the publication rights for other territories to other publishers. The author typically gets a royalty on the home sales, and a percentage of the lump sum for the "other" rights.

At least, that's how it was in my young day. As you say, it's all a bit anachronistic in the global economy.

omk3 · 01-12-2010, 02:48 PM

Thank you, Mike L, your explanation was quite elucidating.

I hope these remnants from the past will soon be smoothed out. No one has anything to gain from such restrictions. It is absurd that I have to travel from Greece to the UK, for example, just to be able to download some books...

Terisa de morgan · 01-12-2010, 03:31 PM

Well, I travel from Spain to USA usually. Why do I have to buy a book to an English publisher that, perhaps, never will publish it or never will sell it to me? What happens then?

Sweetpea · 01-13-2010, 02:10 AM

All English books on my shelves upstairs are from either American or British publishers. I don't know of any Dutch publisher that publishes English books. (actually, I do know one, but that's a school publisher and they only re-publish, generally older, books)

K-Thom · 01-13-2010, 04:38 AM

Quote:

Well, I travel from Spain to USA usually. Why do I have to buy a book to an English publisher that, perhaps, never will publish it or never will sell it to me? What happens then?

Order the paperback, scan it, enjoy. Still a copyright infringement, but one most unlikely to be prosecuted. A lawsuit in Spain of an American publisher against a Spanish customer? Would be very interesting.

@ omk3: I'm doing some pb covers, and my contracts only allow the distribution of a printed version in German-speaking countries. If the publisher should ever consider a foreign-language edition in another country, he'd have to get my permission first or get a new cover.
He'd even need it if he wanted to do an eBook version in Germany. Greedy little me, but that's the limitations I put in my contracts.

So it's not the question if publisher will or won't offer an eBook in foreign countries - but the question if they have the rights to offer it outside their own country, as Mike L stated above.
About all newspapers for the Kindle are sold without photos for the Global Edition. Simple because the newspapers don't have the rights to publish these photos outside the U.S.

And, yep, sure, the EU is considered to be an open market, but there are other examples where this didn't/doesn't work as well. Re-imported new cars were quite an issue some years back when I wasn't allowed as a German to buy a car manufactured in Germany from a car dealer in the Netherlands and re-import it to Germany (as a private individual).

Terisa de morgan · 01-13-2010, 05:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by K-Thom

Order the paperback, scan it, enjoy. Still a copyright infringement, but one most unlikely to be prosecuted. A lawsuit in Spain of an American publisher against a Spanish customer? Would be very interesting.

Buying a paperback and scanning is unlikely to be prosecuted than purchasing a e-book when I've made a mistake about my country?

Quote:

Originally Posted by K-Thom

@ omk3: I'm doing some pb covers, and my contracts only allow the distribution of a printed version in German-speaking countries. If the publisher should ever consider a foreign-language edition in another country, he'd have to get my permission first or get a new cover.
He'd even need it if he wanted to do an eBook version in Germany. Greedy little me, but that's the limitations I put in my contracts.

Yes, I understand, but I think we're taking about a German edition sold in another country. Not foreign-language, the same language. Do FNAC import English e-book as they say for paper books? Makes it sense?

K-Thom · 01-13-2010, 06:00 AM

Quote:

Yes, I understand, but I think we're taking about a German edition sold in another country.

It's not a question of "being sold" but rather one of "being distributed". It's a global world for the Internet and its users, but a regionally partitioned map for rights holders and distributors with all their own interest in keeping/maintaining control over their respective market.

We've got two distribution systems competing for the same audience. Problem/fact is, the "old one" of printing publishers holds the rights to virtually all bestselling titles which make the money and get the attention of both media and audience, so they will decide how this system will evolve and in which direction.

"Native" eBook publishers like myself or Steve Jordan e.g. as an author might have a totally totally different approach. But for the time being our new concept won't make much of an impact due to the role we play in the overall market.

01-12-2010, 11:35 AM	#1
omk3 Wizard Posts: 1,454 Karma: 37243 Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Europe Device: pocketbook 360, kindle 4	Geographic restrictions inside EU (?) I know it has been discussed to death, but I still haven't found a reasonable explanation. I (kind of) understand geographic restrictions, in that authors may sell distribution rights of their books to two or more publishers, each exclusively responsible for a region (or something like that). Silly and frustrating in the age of the internet, but there you go. My question is, how can there be such restrictions inside the European Union? Wasn't the Union supposed to be all about free commerce among its members? Plus, correct me if I'm wrong, but the UK and Ireland are the only english-speaking countries inside the EU. So who would want exclusive distribution rights for say, Germany, or Greece, for an english-language book? For the few handfuls that will want to read the original instead of the translation? All of this was triggered when I recently realized that some books in WHSmith, like Tolkien's, are only available in the UK. I can't get my head around this. Please tell me there is some logic behind all this that I'm missing. (and excuse the ranting ) And a secondary question that may or may not be relevant. I bought my prs-505 from Waterstones while I was in Greece, no problems. Now the site informs me that the sony readers are only available for UK and Ireland customers. Sony Greece does not sell readers, and I don't see any clues that Sony UK send their products worldwide. In whose interests could this restriction be? And since it's a physical product, point of sale is the waterstones store, so what could be the problem? (sorry, I seem to go on and on. I'll shut up now - maybe all this should go to the vent and rant thread instead?) Last edited by omk3; 01-12-2010 at 12:09 PM. Reason: had to add Ireland!

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01-12-2010, 11:52 AM	#3
omk3 Wizard Posts: 1,454 Karma: 37243 Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Europe Device: pocketbook 360, kindle 4	Yes, sorry, sure, Ireland! (I tend to count them together with the UK, though I know no Irish people will like me for that ) My mistake and apologies. Still, does anyone know of anybody having exclusive distribution rights for english-language books in non-english speaking countries? (except simplified educational editions of course)

01-12-2010, 01:17 PM	#4
Direct Ebooks Hibernian eBook Warrior Posts: 184 Karma: 1264 Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Cork, Ireland Device: Sony Reader	Many publishers, especially the smaller ones do have worldwide rights to their titles and this is often reflected in eBook stores. The question of geographical restrictions is a frustrating one. we currently have no restrictions on our site, but this may change over time in order to get a better selection of eBooks.

01-12-2010, 01:53 PM	#6
omk3 Wizard Posts: 1,454 Karma: 37243 Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Europe Device: pocketbook 360, kindle 4	No hard feelings at all, and thank you for correcting me. No offense to Irish people, and I never meant they are the same as the English. It's just, whenever I see any type of geographic restrictions, UK and Ireland are often paired as a market. (see Waterstones restriction I mention above) Please don't make this thread about the Irish, or Malta, and again I apologize for my apparent ignorance (I was after all a bit angry while writing this and not thinking very clearly). My question about free commerce within the EU and distribution rights in non-english speaking countries remains unanswered, and that's what this thread was supposed to be about, even if I managed to put my foot in my mouth...

01-12-2010, 02:00 PM	#7
aceflor Wizard Posts: 3,472 Karma: 48036360 Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: where the sun lives, or so they say Device: Pocketbook Era, Pocketbook Inkpad 4, Kobo Libra 2, Kindle Scribe	no no, don't worry. And I never meant to imply you were ignorant. But to answer your question: the exclusivity for english books in Germany, the Netherlands, and most of all Scandinavia is a very big deal since many do read in english in those countries. And, on a lighter note, it is probably a big deal in Spain too, considering the amount of Residents (or not Residents) there coming from either Germany, the UK, the Netherlands or Denmark, to name a few.... When I visit a B&M Bookstore here in Germany, I am amazed by the amount of english and french books available. So if paperbacks sell well, think of the potential for ebooks....

01-12-2010, 02:08 PM	#8
omk3 Wizard Posts: 1,454 Karma: 37243 Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Europe Device: pocketbook 360, kindle 4	Are these books from german publishers though? Do you know of anyone with exclusivity in these markets? If so, I guess it probably makes sense. In greece too you can find a lot of english language books, but they are just imported as far as I know - greek publishers only handle translations or again, simplified educational material in english. Basically my question probably boils down to this, if something is available in one EU country, shouldn't other EU countries have access to it?

01-12-2010, 02:32 PM	#9
Mike L Wizard Posts: 1,479 Karma: 3846231 Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Edinburgh, Scotland Device: Kindle 3, Samsung Galaxy	OMK3, You've made some good points. But I think one of the reasons for the situation is historical. Up until a while ago, British publishers typically purchased "British and Commonwealth rights" - and before that it was "British and Empire rights", a throwback to the old imperial days. I suspect it's just an old habit that persists. But I take you point that the EU is supposed to put an end to that kind of practice. I don't know the reasons behind it. Another point. You say: authors may sell distribution rights of their books to two or more publishers, each exclusively responsible for a region. What's more likely to happen is that the author sells the rights to a publisher; the publisher publishes the book in their home territory, and then try to sell on the publication rights for other territories to other publishers. The author typically gets a royalty on the home sales, and a percentage of the lump sum for the "other" rights. At least, that's how it was in my young day. As you say, it's all a bit anachronistic in the global economy.

01-12-2010, 02:48 PM	#10
omk3 Wizard Posts: 1,454 Karma: 37243 Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Europe Device: pocketbook 360, kindle 4	Thank you, Mike L, your explanation was quite elucidating. I hope these remnants from the past will soon be smoothed out. No one has anything to gain from such restrictions. It is absurd that I have to travel from Greece to the UK, for example, just to be able to download some books...

01-12-2010, 03:31 PM	#11
Terisa de morgan Grand Sorcerer Posts: 6,597 Karma: 12595249 Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Madrid, Spain Device: Kobo Clara/Aura One/Forma,XiaoMI 5, iPad, Huawei MediaPad, YotaPhone 2	Well, I travel from Spain to USA usually. Why do I have to buy a book to an English publisher that, perhaps, never will publish it or never will sell it to me? What happens then?

01-13-2010, 02:10 AM	#12
Sweetpea Grand Sorcerer Posts: 9,707 Karma: 32763414 Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Krewerd Device: Pocketbook Inkpad 4 Color; Samsung Galaxy Tab S6	All English books on my shelves upstairs are from either American or British publishers. I don't know of any Dutch publisher that publishes English books. (actually, I do know one, but that's a school publisher and they only re-publish, generally older, books)

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