Finally! Cybook Firmware upgrade available for download! - Page 21

Krystian Galaj · 01-10-2010, 07:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

Undoubtedly, but it's a lot harder to make devices handle errors "gracefully" than it is to handle correct code, because there are a virtually limitless variety of ways in which things can go wrong.

Some years ago (I don't remember when) a programmer from Poland (that's why I remember the event) annoyed with web browsers that crashed randomly on many pages made a tool for generating random HTML pages, which were nearly correct (ie. they were generated correct, and then the program randomly made one of two changes in each generated page, like switching places of two closing tags, removing a closing tag, adding a random opening or closing tag in random place, adding a randomly generated bytes in random place in the file. And made this tool public with a blog post (or something similar). It got in the news, and shortly after that all the browsers rather quickly stopped crashing on any such pages.

Perhaps if there existed such a tool for generating nearly correct ePub documents, with faults and unexpected data in as many places as possible, more device/software manufacturers would test their viewers more extensively with it? As it is, they probably write a small set of tests, or test the documents on a few random pages, and that's it, as they never have time for more testing. If they could generate 10000 broken docs, run the software on each of them overnight, get a set of pages on which it crashed, then fixing each crash bug is 5 minutes of work, no more.

EowynCarter · 01-10-2010, 08:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Krystian Galaj

Some years ago (I don't remember when) a programmer from Poland (that's why I remember the event) annoyed with web browsers that crashed randomly on many pages made a tool for generating random HTML pages, which were nearly correct (ie. they were generated correct, and then the program randomly made one of two changes in each generated page, like switching places of two closing tags, removing a closing tag, adding a random opening or closing tag in random place, adding a randomly generated bytes in random place in the file. And made this tool public with a blog post (or something similar). It got in the news, and shortly after that all the browsers rather quickly stopped crashing on any such pages.

Perhaps if there existed such a tool for generating nearly correct ePub documents, with faults and unexpected data in as many places as possible, more device/software manufacturers would test their viewers more extensively with it? As it is, they probably write a small set of tests, or test the documents on a few random pages, and that's it, as they never have time for more testing. If they could generate 10000 broken docs, run the software on each of them overnight, get a set of pages on which it crashed, then fixing each crash bug is 5 minutes of work, no more.

I kind of disgree with you.
It's the publisher's job to make ePub that respects the standard, just as it is the developers job to make html that respect standard.
Not that long ago I made a web-page. Firefox works fine, IE get some weird display. First reaction "Damm you IE". Then looking at the code, I realised that IE was the one doing things right. It was yelling at me for a perfect reason. Firefox fixed a mess it shouldn't have bother with.
What's the point of norms if you don't respect them ? Norms are not there for your convenience. They are there to make sure everyone speak the same language. You can't say "screw them" because you're too lazy to make proper html.
And yes, i wish firefox said me "to the hell with you", when i'm stupid enough to send weirdo html. If it did, maybe developers would pay more attention in following the norms.

Jellby · 01-10-2010, 08:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EowynCarter

It's the publisher's job to make ePub that respects the standard, just as it is the developers job to make html that respect standard.

But it's the programmer's job to make software that does not crash.

tompe · 01-10-2010, 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EowynCarter

Not that long ago I made a web-page. Firefox works fine, IE get some weird display. First reaction "Damm you IE". Then looking at the code, I realised that IE was the one doing things right. It was yelling at me for a perfect reason. Firefox fixed a mess it shouldn't have bother with.
What's the point of norms if you don't respect them ? Norms are not there for your convenience. They are there to make sure everyone speak the same language. You can't say "screw them" because you're too lazy to make proper html.
And yes, i wish firefox said me "to the hell with you", when i'm stupid enough to send weirdo html. If it did, maybe developers would pay more attention in following the norms.

You run validators to check your html code. There is an explicit goal that browsers should be forgiving. A browser that is not forgiving is not following the design principle.

You should have used an validator. Do not blame firefox for your mistake.

EowynCarter · 01-10-2010, 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jellby

But it's the programmer's job to make software that does not crash.

Ok, there is a difference between crashing and weirdo display.
But the few time I tried opening wrong files, i had the cybook going back to menu, not crashing.
Unless that something that was changed..

Quote:

You run validators to check your html code.

I should have

Quote:

There is an explicit goal that browsers should be forgiving.

Why ? So dev get get away with crap html ?

Quote:

You should have used an validator. Do not blame firefox for your mistake.

I don't. I blame it for not yelling at me. (either by crashing, or anything else). I don't consider it's the browser job to fix my mess. Fixing my mess is my job.

Krystian Galaj · 01-10-2010, 08:34 AM

The longer I work as a programmer, the more I say "trust no one"

Yes, the publishers should have made a well-formatted file, and all the users that learn ePub for the first time and make it in Notepad should never make mistakes - but they will. And since it's possible to make such a random invalid ePub generator as I described, and use it to test the software, should one refrain from doing it on moral grounds? (ie. that documents should follow standards).
No one is saying about silently ignoring errors, you can refuse to open such invalid book, print out 3 pages of errors in a special window (would be even better) - but crashing the device? A bit over the top

JSWolf · 01-10-2010, 08:41 AM

When you get what seems like silly bugs, it does make one wonder what sort of beta testing the code actually went through.

EowynCarter · 01-10-2010, 08:42 AM

Quote:

The longer I work as a programmer, the more I say "trust no one"

Right. Can't go against that one

What the cybook or browser should do, is not crash but display a "oups, not a valid file".

Quote:

When you get what seems like silly bugs, it does make one wonder what sort of beta testing the code actually went through.

Oh, sure, the firmware on your oh so dear sony reader is totally bug-free.

T_Frain_K · 01-10-2010, 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EowynCarter

And yes, i wish firefox said me "to the hell with you", when i'm stupid enough to send weirdo html. If it did, maybe developers would pay more attention in following the norms.

That is exactly (among other things) the reason firefox is the most popular browser.
Most users of a web browser do not use it to test their own code, but to browse the net. And you cannot expect any page in the cloud to follow all the rules - that is far of realistic. And I do not see reason in the browser behaving weird or printing confusing errors to the user, whoms fault this is not.

Jellby · 01-10-2010, 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EowynCarter

But the few time I tried opening wrong files, i had the cybook going back to menu, not crashing.
Unless that something that was changed..

I have always seen my Gen3 crash in one of two ways:

- Hang, usually with the green led on, so I have to use the reset button in the back.

- Reboot, without showing the initial screen (i.e, directly to the "three dots" screen) and, of course without saving the configuration (last page, font size...).

The main effect of the "reboot" is you are left in the library screen again, but it's a genuine crash.

EowynCarter · 01-10-2010, 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jellby

I have always seen my Gen3 crash in one of two ways:

- Hang, usually with the green led on, so I have to use the reset button in the back.

- Reboot, without showing the initial screen (i.e, directly to the "three dots" screen) and, of course without saving the configuration (last page, font size...).

The main effect of the "reboot" is you are left in the library screen again, but it's a genuine crash.

The opus used to crash at "random" when turning page.
Gen 3, sometimes froze at start-up. And with some pdf.

Quote:

That is exactly (among other things) the reason firefox is the most popular browser.
Most users of a web browser do not use it to test their own code, but to browse the net. And you cannot expect any page in the cloud to follow all the rules - that is far of realistic. And I do not see reason in the browser behaving weird or printing confusing errors to the user, whoms fault this is not.

Yes, that why the browser acts that way. But it gives the developers bad habits.

HarryT · 01-10-2010, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by T_Frain_K

That is exactly (among other things) the reason firefox is the most popular browser.
Most users of a web browser do not use it to test their own code, but to browse the net. And you cannot expect any page in the cloud to follow all the rules - that is far of realistic. And I do not see reason in the browser behaving weird or printing confusing errors to the user, whoms fault this is not.

OK - here's an OT question for you.

Take a look at this web site:

http://www.bigfinish.com

It displays perfectly in IE8. Firefox tells me that it can't display it because "it's not redirecting properly".

Why can't Firefox display a site that IE handles without problem?

tompe · 01-10-2010, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

OK - here's an OT question for you.

Take a look at this web site:

http://www.bigfinish.com

It displays perfectly in IE8. Firefox tells me that it can't display it because "it's not redirecting properly".

Why can't Firefox display a site that IE handles without problem?

My firefox (3.5.6) displays it.

But allowing bad html is one thing. Re-directing is another. I suspect there are security reasons to not allow some re-directing.

HarryT · 01-10-2010, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tompe

My firefox (3.5.6) displays it.

But allowing bad html is one thing. Re-directing is another. I suspect there are security reasons to not allow some re-directing.

That's interesting. For me, I get (with Firefox 3.5.7, but it happened with 3.5.6 too):

Problem loading page.

Firefox has detected that the server is redirecting the request for this address in a way that will never complete.

But with IE8, all is well.

Ah well, one of life's mysteries!

T_Frain_K · 01-10-2010, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

http://www.bigfinish.com

It displays perfectly in IE8. Firefox tells me that it can't display it because "it's not redirecting properly".

Why can't Firefox display a site that IE handles without problem?

Working properly with FireFox 3.5.7 as well as IE 8.
But I am the wrong person to speak to for that matter

I´m just a user with some background knowledge.

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01-10-2010, 08:34 AM	#306
Krystian Galaj Guru Posts: 820 Karma: 11012 Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Warsaw, Poland Device: Bookeen Cybook	The longer I work as a programmer, the more I say "trust no one" Yes, the publishers should have made a well-formatted file, and all the users that learn ePub for the first time and make it in Notepad should never make mistakes - but they will. And since it's possible to make such a random invalid ePub generator as I described, and use it to test the software, should one refrain from doing it on moral grounds? (ie. that documents should follow standards). No one is saying about silently ignoring errors, you can refuse to open such invalid book, print out 3 pages of errors in a special window (would be even better) - but crashing the device? A bit over the top

01-10-2010, 08:41 AM	#307
JSWolf Resident Curmudgeon Posts: 79,798 Karma: 146391129 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Roslindale, Massachusetts Device: Kobo Libra 2, Kobo Aura H2O, PRS-650, PRS-T1, nook STR, PW3	When you get what seems like silly bugs, it does make one wonder what sort of beta testing the code actually went through.