Microsoft is getting back into ebooks! - Page 2

EowynCarter · 12-30-2009, 07:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LDBoblo

I don't think it's competing with epub and azw. Those formats are generally for low-quality reflowable text on portable devices. This seems to just be an extension from PDF, which is essentially fixed format. Not bad in terms of quality, but not so hot for small screens. Perhaps that's what the TTS is for (one article did say there was cooperation with Nokia).

Low quality ?
I have a pretty fine ePub from o'reilly, it don't pale against it's pdf equivalant. And is way more readeable on my 5".
ePub allows a lot, when properly used.

PDF is good for what it was meant for (ie fixed source for printing or display), but is crap as an ebook format.

Bremen Cole · 12-30-2009, 07:27 AM

@EowynCarter I agree. OF all the ebook formats I have used, I think I like epub the best. I have converted just about everything (using Calibre) into epub, and like the look.

As far as Microsoft and their new format.... Since there is yet no real standard, I can't blame them for trying. I am sure Microsoft, Adobe, Amazon and others would like to be that standard for market reasons. I really don't care what the standard is, I just hope over the next 5 years or so one format comes to the front. MP3 is pretty much the standard for audio, one can hope electronic publishing will have one soon as well.

WillAdams · 12-30-2009, 07:35 AM

PDF only has difficulties if one includes re-flowability as part of the definition of ``ebook'' and if one has unrealistic expectations of what size display will be used to view what size page.

Given that ``book'' (as opposed to scroll) indicates pagination, that's arguable at best.

William

Phogg · 12-30-2009, 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WillAdams

PDF only has difficulties if one includes re-flowability as part of the definition of ``ebook''

A Corvette only has difficulties if one includes a bed as part of the definition of "truck"

WillAdams · 01-05-2010, 10:42 AM

book - a written or printed work consisting of pages...
ebook - an electronic version of a printed book which can be read on a personal computer or hand-held device designed specifically for this purpose

re-flowability is _not_ part of the Oxford definition.

William

ShellShock · 01-05-2010, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WillAdams

book - a written or printed work consisting of pages...
ebook - an electronic version of a printed book which can be read on a personal computer or hand-held device designed specifically for this purpose

re-flowability is _not_ part of the Oxford definition.

William

I was not aware that the OED set the standard for the Engish language that we all must follow. Instead the OED tries to capture current usage. Common usage for the vast majority of ebook formats is to support reflow. PDF is an exception because it is difficult to reflow.

Even when we can all afford large screen devices there will still be a need to something more portable, and therefore reflow will still be a requirement. PDF just does not hack it.

LDBoblo · 01-05-2010, 12:16 PM

I'd like to see such an epub that is of very good quality. I have yet to see one.

WillAdams · 01-05-2010, 01:19 PM

e==electronic, book == pages, ebook == electronic text w/ pagination.

If you want to come up w/ a format which has no pages, well that's be plain text or an ``escroll''.

Granted, re-flowability is a nice option, but giving up pagination results in a one lowering the standard for typography, introducing widows, orphans, stacks and other typographic infelicities which drive me to flowing the text into a .pdf using TeX so that the formatting is something I can tolerate enough to read.

William

charleski · 01-05-2010, 02:11 PM

As far as document-delivery goes on the desktop, PDF is so deeply entrenched that any attempt to dislodge it is doomed to failure.

ePub is an excellent standard for delivery to portable readers, though it hasn't been completely expanded to cover media-rich applications and the arena is relatively new, so competition is still relevant. We already know that Apple is going to try to muscle in with its iTunesLP format, so no surprise that MS is looking to do the same.

Arguing about the need for reflowability is utterly irrelevant. It's a necessary part of any standard (even the rigid page-based PDF system includes substantial support for it as long as it's configured correctly at creation).

Elfwreck · 01-05-2010, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WillAdams

e==electronic, book == pages, ebook == electronic text w/ pagination.

If you want to come up w/ a format which has no pages, well that's be plain text or an ``escroll''.

Which you will read on your liseuse.

It's more than a bit late to insist that "ebook" doesn't include reflow, esp. since Gutenberg got started with .txt files. Reflowable text for ebooks has been standard, although not universal, since ebooks were first being created & shared.

You might as well insist that if it doesn't have a cover, it's not an ebook, because paper books have covers.

dickon25 · 01-05-2010, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LDBoblo

I'd like to see such an epub that is of very good quality. I have yet to see one.

Agreed. Every ePub I've bought has looked terrible on my 505 - I always convert it to lrf.

Gary J · 01-06-2010, 02:57 AM

I do not yet own a portable reader. I do all my e-reading on a desktop. I read MS REader, Mobi, Palm eReader and Adope (sorry, Adobe) but more than any other format I read HTML. Good old, non-DRM'd reflowable, resizable, HTML. Which portable readers properly render those files?

m-reader · 01-06-2010, 03:06 AM

Here we go ...

It's on for young and old!

Oopsie: Already discussed in this thread.

fjtorres · 01-06-2010, 07:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary J

I do not yet own a portable reader. I do all my e-reading on a desktop. I read MS REader, Mobi, Palm eReader and Adope (sorry, Adobe) but more than any other format I read HTML. Good old, non-DRM'd reflowable, resizable, HTML. Which portable readers properly render those files?

There's a whole forum devoted to the subject of reader comparative merits right here:
https://www.mobileread.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=123

You can get a good start here:
https://wiki.mobileread.com/wiki/E-book_Reader_Matrix

To date, only the Hanlin V3 (I have one) and V5 even pretend to support MS Reader format (they do but its flaky, so far).
https://www.mobileread.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=101
https://www.mobileread.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=204

Many support all your other listed formats. The Hanlins support all of them quite well. I also have a Pocketbook 360 and it supports them *great*.
https://www.mobileread.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=206

Study the Ebook Reader Matrix and check out the hardware features that interest you and go to the appropriate forum. Help is readily available.

Of course, if battery life is not a big issue, you can get *excellent* support for all your formats using a small UMPC (the likes of which can be found at Dynamism and elsewhere) along the lines of the Viliv 5 or 7 or an Archos 9 or asus T91.
Alternately, if you find a reader gadget you like that (alas) does not support one or more of your formats, you *can* easily batch-convert them to a supported format with Calibre.

You have lots of ebook reading options.

Let the hunt begin!

HarryT · 01-06-2010, 07:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LDBoblo

I'd like to see such an epub that is of very good quality. I have yet to see one.

You're a "fan" of PDF, are you not? You are aware that ePub files can contain embedded PDF for display of complex pages?

01-06-2010, 03:06 AM	#28
m-reader Guru Posts: 785 Karma: 100000 Join Date: Dec 2007 Device: Sony PRS-300. PRS-650, PRS-900, iPad2, Iconia A500, Irex Iliad (sold)	Here we go ... It's on for young and old! Oopsie: Already discussed in this thread. Last edited by m-reader; 01-06-2010 at 03:08 AM. Reason: Error between the chair and the keyboard.

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12-30-2009, 07:27 AM	#17
Bremen Cole Wizard Posts: 1,115 Karma: 2718 Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Texas Device: iPad	@EowynCarter I agree. OF all the ebook formats I have used, I think I like epub the best. I have converted just about everything (using Calibre) into epub, and like the look. As far as Microsoft and their new format.... Since there is yet no real standard, I can't blame them for trying. I am sure Microsoft, Adobe, Amazon and others would like to be that standard for market reasons. I really don't care what the standard is, I just hope over the next 5 years or so one format comes to the front. MP3 is pretty much the standard for audio, one can hope electronic publishing will have one soon as well.

12-30-2009, 07:35 AM	#18
WillAdams Wizard Posts: 1,258 Karma: 3439432 Join Date: Feb 2008 Device: Amazon Kindle Paperwhite (300ppi), Samsung Galaxy Book 12	PDF only has difficulties if one includes re-flowability as part of the definition of ``ebook'' and if one has unrealistic expectations of what size display will be used to view what size page. Given that ``book'' (as opposed to scroll) indicates pagination, that's arguable at best. William

01-05-2010, 10:42 AM	#20
WillAdams Wizard Posts: 1,258 Karma: 3439432 Join Date: Feb 2008 Device: Amazon Kindle Paperwhite (300ppi), Samsung Galaxy Book 12	book - a written or printed work consisting of pages... ebook - an electronic version of a printed book which can be read on a personal computer or hand-held device designed specifically for this purpose re-flowability is _not_ part of the Oxford definition. William

01-05-2010, 12:16 PM	#22
LDBoblo Wizard Posts: 1,385 Karma: 16056 Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Asia Device: Kindle 3 WiFi, Sony PRS-505	I'd like to see such an epub that is of very good quality. I have yet to see one.

01-05-2010, 01:19 PM	#23
WillAdams Wizard Posts: 1,258 Karma: 3439432 Join Date: Feb 2008 Device: Amazon Kindle Paperwhite (300ppi), Samsung Galaxy Book 12	e==electronic, book == pages, ebook == electronic text w/ pagination. If you want to come up w/ a format which has no pages, well that's be plain text or an ``escroll''. Granted, re-flowability is a nice option, but giving up pagination results in a one lowering the standard for typography, introducing widows, orphans, stacks and other typographic infelicities which drive me to flowing the text into a .pdf using TeX so that the formatting is something I can tolerate enough to read. William

01-05-2010, 02:11 PM	#24
charleski Wizard Posts: 1,196 Karma: 1281258 Join Date: Sep 2009 Device: PRS-505	As far as document-delivery goes on the desktop, PDF is so deeply entrenched that any attempt to dislodge it is doomed to failure. ePub is an excellent standard for delivery to portable readers, though it hasn't been completely expanded to cover media-rich applications and the arena is relatively new, so competition is still relevant. We already know that Apple is going to try to muscle in with its iTunesLP format, so no surprise that MS is looking to do the same. Arguing about the need for reflowability is utterly irrelevant. It's a necessary part of any standard (even the rigid page-based PDF system includes substantial support for it as long as it's configured correctly at creation).

01-06-2010, 02:57 AM	#27
Gary J Junior Member Posts: 6 Karma: 10 Join Date: Dec 2009 Device: none	I do not yet own a portable reader. I do all my e-reading on a desktop. I read MS REader, Mobi, Palm eReader and Adope (sorry, Adobe) but more than any other format I read HTML. Good old, non-DRM'd reflowable, resizable, HTML. Which portable readers properly render those files?