E-Book Piracy: The Publishing Industry's Next Epic Saga?

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by Shaggy

They're not talking about taking away our right to share with millions, they don't want us to be able to share eBooks with ANYBODY. If I can share a pBook with 1 person at a time, why can't I share an eBook with 1 person at a time? If I can exercise my one time right of first sale for a pBook, why can't I sell an eBook once? Technical ways of doing that already exist, but Publishers have taken it upon themselves to decide that we're not allowed to use them.

It's not that they're denying us new capabilities that eBooks allow, it's that they're also trying to take away old ones that we've always had.



It's not a different product. The product is not the pieces of paper, it's the story. It's not the digital 1s and 0s, it's the same story.

No, you are simply wrong about this. There are new possibilities inherent in the new format which impact the entire industry. It is not (easily) possible to do the same things (i.e. share with millions) in the pbook world as it is in the ebook world. It's inherently different. It changes everything and therefore requires new ways of managing it in order to preserve EVERYONES rights.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by Bob T

Well Kenny, I'm one of those crazy folks that think people are fundamentally good...
I can copy any DVD I own...I could make copies for all my friends for about $0.25 each, or rip and just put it out on the web....but I don't.

If ebooks were DRM free, I would still only loan out the books I buy to the same people I loan out my pbooks...
I wouldn't post them up on the net and I wouldn't get them off the net.
Plus, I would probably buy more than I do now...

That's just me I guess....
I've enjoyed this little discussion...I have things to do, but I'll be checking back in...

Later,

I am too Bob, but I also know that is not true of many and you know the old saying "One bad apple.."

I'm all for getting rid of DRM if at all possible, but I'm also an author's rights advocate and unfortunately that involves all kinds of mess laws and other stuff make it work for everyone.

Enjoy.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

Oh, please. Go to a library... you know, the institute just waiting to share with everyone? ...and stop trying to label me an elitist Orwellian snob.

Don't mean to be labeling you an elitist. Really. But the idea that sharing books and reselling them is not important, strikes me as very very wrong--and a nearly impossible statement from anyone who regularly has to chose between books and lunch.

A library is a book-sharing institution, and you'd just said booksharing wasn't important to many people. You didn't specify that you meant person-to-person only. You also didn't specify "non-students"-- plenty of college students only manage to afford school at all because of a healthy secondhand book industry.

Libraries are focused on providing access to what the majority of the local community is interested in reading. They don't provide many niche books (unless the local community is both wealthy and urban), and don't try to provide complete collections of many authors. (For example, I own copies of all the books Heinlein published when he was alive. None of my several local libraries do.)

Libraries are never going to share all possible ebooks, either. Even if they got rid of the DRM lock-in, where only those libraries willing/able to deal with Overdrive etc. can loan ebooks, a library is never going to have the focused collections that individuals create.

I own over 50, maybe over 100 books that would be tagged under Dewey 133.409 in a library. Most libraries have about 8 books with that number. (Maybe a few more, if the local tarot & astrology communities are active.) Libraries don't need to provide all of those. As delightful as I'd find it if thousands of people wanted to read Timothy Leary's book about Tarot and human brain development, I really don't expect it to catch on. Nor can I tell people, "if you're interested, go buy a copy;" they're not available.

Small, personal libraries are a mainstay in any literary community; public libraries just can't afford to spend their resources catering to every special interest group.

[Shaggy]

Originally Posted by kennyc

There are new possibilities inherent in the new format which impact the entire industry.

We're not talking about the new possibilities. We're talking about the attempt to also take away the old possibilities. There is no technical reason why they have to take them away as well, but they are trying to anyway.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by Shaggy

Exactly. Something used to be legal. A new media comes along that makes it easier to do illegal things. Nobody is saying that we should now have the right to do the new illegal things. What we're complaining about is that they are also taking away the rights to do what used to be legal.

That is not due to inherent differences, that is a power grab.

No. The issue is that it was no less illegal before, but just more difficult. It was never legal to make a copy of a book and sell it or give it away. At least not under current copyright law. I'm not sure what you are claiming is being taken away. There is no law (that I know of) that says you can't sell and ebook. The problem is that it won't work because of the method chosen of protecting authors right BECAUSE OF THE INHERENT DIFFERENCE IN FORMAT.

As with all things you can't look at this just from one perspective (the consumer), the author has rights, the publisher has rights, the bookseller has rights. The law as a whole must do it's best to protect everyone's rights.

It's right back to your right to swing your fist stops at my face. Now with your new genetically engineered longer arms you are more restricted in what you can do with them.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by Shaggy

We're not talking about the new possibilities. We're talking about the attempt to also take away the old possibilities. There is no technical reason why they have to take them away as well, but they are trying to anyway.

No. Things changed. We have a thing called ebooks now.

[Shaggy]

Originally Posted by kennyc

I'm all for getting rid of DRM if at all possible, but I'm also an author's rights advocate and unfortunately that involves all kinds of mess laws and other stuff make it work for everyone.

DRM has very little to do with author's rights. That's what copyright is for.

Author's are not generally the ones asking for and/or designing DRM, the Publishers are. DRM is a battle between consumer rights versus company profits.

[Shaggy]

Originally Posted by kennyc

It was never legal to make a copy of a book and sell it or give it away. At least not under current copyright law.

Nobody is saying it should be. But I can certainly take the original book and either lend it or sell it. Both of those are legal.

There is no law (that I know of) that says you can't sell and ebook. The problem is that it won't work because of the method chosen of protecting authors right BECAUSE OF THE INHERENT DIFFERENCE IN FORMAT.

No. It won't work because the chosen method was DELIBERATELY DESIGNED TO PREVENT IT. It has nothing to do with the format or an inherent limitation. A DRM system that would allow you to transfer a license to a single person is certainly possible. The most common eBook DRMs do not allow that only because they were specifically designed that way.

It's right back to your right to swing your fist stops at my face. Now with your new genetically engineered longer arms you are more restricted in what you can do with them.

You're completely missing the point. Nobody is saying that my genetically engineered longer arms should allow me to swing my fist through your face, we're saying that we're being prevented from swinging them at all. As long as I swing them in exactly the same way I swung them before (which is already technically possible), why can't I do so?

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by Shaggy

DRM has very little to do with author's rights. That's what copyright is for.

Author's are not generally the ones asking for and/or designing DRM, the Publishers are. DRM is a battle between consumer rights versus company profits.

There's more to is than that simplification as I've indicated. There is a variety of "rights" that must be considered and are all affected by the format of the product.

[Greg Anos]

What is value?


1. Scarcity

2. Convenience

3. Perceived Quality.


Why does bottled water sell? It's not due to scarcity. It's value is strictly Convenience and Perceived Quality.

I.P is sold on Scarcity as well as Convenience and Perceived Quality. you want author X's book Y? We, the copyright controllers determine what price we sell at. And you can't buy it without paying our price. (at least once somewhere in the chain.)

Unfortunately, that model is over. Everybody can make their own copy, cheaply and easily. So the model has to change from Scarcity and Convenience and Perceived Quality, to only Convenience and Perceived Quality. And that requires a different model. But like bottled water, money can be made by that model, if you market accordingly. Else Baen would never have made for the last ten years (profitably).

[Shaggy]

Originally Posted by kennyc

There is a variety of "rights" that must be considered and are all affected by the format of the product.

Existing rights are not affected by the format of the product. There is no technical limitation that is preventing those rights from continuing to exist. Those rights are being removed by a choice from the publishers.

As far as new possibilities that the new format opens up, you're absolutely correct. But what you don't seem to understand is that I'm not talking about those.

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by Happ

That is an illusion. You will need shelf space, exposure. Having a website is not going to do it. You have to go Amazon ou iTunes or somewhere where people find you. Selling the odd e-book on your own website will probably not be enough to pay for the website alone, especially if you do know how or want to do it yourself. And on top of that you have to sell them cheap and also to give some for free. It just doesn’t work. If it did work, you would see lots of authors living from e-books and music sold on their own websites. What you can have, of course, is amateurs: people with some other day job that then are able to make say 100 dollars per month. Do you want all authors to be amateurs?

Half my library is from authors who were "amateurs" when they wrote the books in my library.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by Shaggy

...


You're completely missing the point. Nobody is saying that my genetically engineered longer arms should allow me to swing my fist through your face, we're saying that we're being prevented from swinging them at all. As long as I swing them in exactly the same way I swung them before (which is already technically possible), why can't I do so?

Ah, but if you don't understand that, then you are missing the point.

I'm pretty much done with this, I've said what I want to say and you just want to argue your point with which I disagree because you are only looking at the issue from one limited perspective - that of the consumer and are attempting to dismiss the inherent changes in technology which completely change the ground rules. You want the new technology to be provided without changes in the rules and it just simply is not possible because of the inherent difference in capabilities and ability to abuse it. As I said earlier this is exactly the same thing that the music industry had gone through and it is still suffering from it and I don't really expect it to ever be the same. The publishing industry is in the midst of this change and it too will never be the same.

[DawnFalcon]

Originally Posted by Shaggy

Of course it works, this is actually what the industry really fears.

RPG's have proven this. If the publishing industry had any sense, they should of done whatever they could to shut down the Open Gaming Liscence. Or DriveThruRPG.

But they haven't and didn't. And the small companies (especially now WoTC have taken themselves out of the game) are now doing very well for themselves epublishing fully professional products. Some later get picked up for print runs, others don't, but the print runs are later.

[Shaggy]

Originally Posted by kennyc

You want the new technology to be provided without changes in the rules and it just simply is not possible because of the inherent difference in capabilities and ability to abuse it.

This is exactly why you are wrong. It has already been done, but the publishers won't allow it. There is no inherent reason that the old rules can not continue for the old possibilities. It is already technically possible to lend 1 digital copy to 1 and only 1 person at a time. They have made a deliberate choice to prevent it.

Yes, new rules have to be made for the new possibilities (lending to multiple people at the same time), but that is not what we're talking about.