Amazon's $9.99 eBook Attacked as "Predatory Pricing"

[calvin-c]

Originally Posted by rhadin

You are correct. scifi readers tend to be more supportive of authors they like. They often will buy both the e and p versions, as well as the ARC versions of a book. They often will click the donation button. Outside of certain niches, the Baen model will not work.

I don't know that I totally agree that it won't work outside of 'certain' niches, but I'm not going to say that it will either. First I'd want to know which niches we think it will work in (or, alternatively, which we think it won't work in).

My first thought was that you were saying it wouldn't work outside the sci-fi niche, which I'm pretty certain is wrong. (I think it would work very well in the mystery/detective niche, although I don't know of any publishers using it there.)

Then I re-read what you *did* say, so I'll withhold further comment until we decide where we think it will/won't work. As a starter, I very much doubt it would work well in technical non-fiction. Might work in historical/biographical non-fiction though. Maybe in philosophy?

[DawnFalcon]

Originally Posted by rhadin

Every function that a publisher performs for an author can be done work-for-hire. But who will foot the bill? How many authors can afford $5,000+ for editorial work, $20,000+ for marketing, $2,000+ for cover artwork, $3,000+ for typesetting, etc., out of pocket? Publishers pay these costs.

They don't cost that much. Your average RPG rulebook is considerably more complex than a novel and doesn't have anything like those costs - I can speak to that from firsthand experience.

Lol 2k cover artwork. I've had complete artwork done for a RPG book - over 20 illustrations - for less than that. (I hired a professional artist, with half the images chosen from his stock, the other half paid for on a per-hour basis with 6-month exclusivity, and an additional fee for the two images I wanted to be permanently exclusive).

The trick for pricing is you *don't* need permanent exclusivity for the vast majority of images! (The two images I have exclusively are an iconic spaceship and one of the key storyline character in the setting)

[BearMountainBooks]

There are several artists that I talked to that were willing to do an ebook cover in the 80 dollar range--licensing a cover at a yearly rate was cheaper in some cases. Sure, these aren't your big-name famous cover-art authors, but there's a lot of talent out there!!!! I found art I liked and names from www.AnthologyBuilder.com by studying the covers there.

Same with editing. I've done editing work and been paid by the word, by the document and so on. It doesn't have to cost 5k. Marketing? I'd like to think that a trad publisher would spend that much on me! There are smaller PR firms that will do basic PR for 500 dollar packages--but most what comes in small packages are things you can do yourself.

Any large business (such as a trad publisher) is going to attract and have to pay for more expensive artwork/editors/PR and so on. It's part of their success. The little guy can do a pretty good job, if the little guy is willing to--on a much smaller budget!

[tompe]

Originally Posted by rhadin

Every function that a publisher performs for an author can be done work-for-hire. But who will foot the bill? How many authors can afford $5,000+ for editorial work, $20,000+ for marketing, $2,000+ for cover artwork, $3,000+ for typesetting, etc., out of pocket? Publishers pay these costs.

From what have heard from sf authors the publishers do not do marketing anymore or they do very little marketing like and ad in Locus.

[rhadin]

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

They don't cost that much. Your average RPG rulebook is considerably more complex than a novel and doesn't have anything like those costs - I can speak to that from firsthand experience.

I wasn't talking about RPG books; they may well have a different cost basis. I have no familiarity with them. And I am willing to concede that fiction books can cost less -- or more -- but regardless of your personal experience, my personal experience is that costs can and do run as high and higher than I listed. As I said, I know for a fact that a recent book I edited cost more than $50,000 in just editorial costs and I also can state with certainty that that price has not been atypical of many of the books I have worked on in the past 20 years.

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

Lol 2k cover artwork. I've had complete artwork done for a RPG book - over 20 illustrations - for less than that. (I hired a professional artist, with half the images chosen from his stock, the other half paid for on a per-hour basis with 6-month exclusivity, and an additional fee for the two images I wanted to be permanently exclusive).

So then we can agree that no RPG book should be selling for more than $2.99 and that RPG publishers are really ripping off consumers. Or is it just RPG books that you are involved with?

[DawnFalcon]

Different cost basis? For the same skills? No. Heck, if anything RPG's are a subset of editing and I'd expect to know more because you need the editor to have some knowledge of RPG game systems.

And was that $50k editing book a novel? If it's a highly technical manual in a zero-error industry (i.e. aviation) perhaps, but again RPG's tend to require higher precision than novels and a tenth the cost is still ludicrous.

Also... RPG ebooks do typically sell quite cheaply. $15 for the PDF of a book which would be $25 in it's paper edition is about right, and highly typical. Ultra Starfire, which I've worked on, is $21 including a year's errata and updates...

Some of the 20-odd page mini-adventures I worked on do sell for $1.99...and they don't generally generate a profit. It's about keeping customers interested, with a library of material etc.

[rhadin]

Originally Posted by BearMountainBooks

There are several artists that I talked to that were willing to do an ebook cover in the 80 dollar range . . . . Sure, these aren't your big-name famous cover-art authors, but there's a lot of talent out there!!!! . . .

Same with editing. I've done editing work and been paid by the word, by the document and so on. It doesn't have to cost 5k. Marketing? I'd like to think that a trad publisher would spend that much on me! There are smaller PR firms that will do basic PR for 500 dollar packages--but most what comes in small packages are things you can do yourself.

And so how successful are these books? How many tens of thousands have been sold? How many have been reviewed other than in the local weekly newspaper? How many are stocked on the shelves at B&N? How many national awards have these books won or even nominated for? How many classrooms make them recommended reading?

My point is that yes, you can do things very cheaply. Heck, I know editors who will edit a book for less than 50 cents a page. But it's the difference between a Yugo and a Toyota. It's the difference between an editor who knows that shear and sheer are not the same thing, that affect and effect, their and there, and roll and role give different meaning to a sentence. Highly skilled editors cost more but bring more to the table than just running spellcheck.

The same is true of cover designers and book designers, as well as book marketers (is the same marketer who can sell local oil changes very well equally capable of getting your book on regional TV and for the same price?). There is a reason why these professions are pyramidal and there is truth to these statements: you get what you pay for and you reap what you sow (or should that be sew or so? a good editor knows ).

The issue isn't can it get done less expensively; the issue is what level of quality is "good enough". As you wrote:

Originally Posted by BearMountainBooks

Any large business (such as a trad publisher) is going to attract and have to pay for more expensive artwork/editors/PR and so on. It's part of their success. The little guy can do a pretty good job, if the little guy is willing to--on a much smaller budget!

Ultimately, the questions are How good is pretty good? and Is pretty good good enough? (Of course, it isn't clear what pretty good means.) As you note, traditional publishers are successful because they do spend the money.

[tompe]

Originally Posted by rhadin

for a fact that a recent book I edited cost more than $50,000 in just editorial costs and I also can state with certainty that that price has not been atypical of many of the books I have worked on in the past 20 years.

So how many man hour are you talking about here? And how many pages in the book?

[DawnFalcon]

Would you like to state your rates, rhadin, in the interests of full disclosure?

[omk3]

Originally Posted by rhadin

My point is that yes, you can do things very cheaply. Heck, I know editors who will edit a book for less than 50 cents a page. But it's the difference between a Yugo and a Toyota. It's the difference between an editor who knows that shear and sheer are not the same thing, that affect and effect, their and there, and roll and role give different meaning to a sentence. Highly skilled editors cost more but bring more to the table than just running spellcheck.

It seems that commercial books by widely known authors, published by known and respectable publishers, have no toyota editors then - not for their ebooks anyway. You cannot imagine how many roles instead of rolls, and how many sheers instead of shears I found in ebooks I've purchased, and I'm no editor myself, good or mediocre. I'm just a reader, but I know a wrong word when I see one. Maybe this is all a bit off topic, but I had to say it. Someone who loves his job may be better at it than someone that is well paid. If a writer gives his manuscript to five friends who are not bored while they read it, they will do a very adequate editing job I'm sure. I know that since I got my prs-600 I use the note-taking extensively to correct mistakes on books that should have come to me word-perfect.

[BearMountainBooks]

Originally Posted by rhadin

And so how successful are these books? How many tens of thousands have been sold? How many have been reviewed other than in the local weekly newspaper? How many are stocked on the shelves at B&N? How many national awards have these books won or even nominated for? How many classrooms make them recommended reading?

My point is that yes, you can do things very cheaply. Heck, I know editors who will edit a book for less than 50 cents a page. But it's the difference between a Yugo and a Toyota. It's the difference between an editor who knows that shear and sheer are not the same thing, that affect and effect, their and there, and roll and role give different meaning to a sentence. Highly skilled editors cost more but bring more to the table than just running spellcheck.

The same is true of cover designers and book designers, as well as book marketers (is the same marketer who can sell local oil changes very well equally capable of getting your book on regional TV and for the same price?). There is a reason why these professions are pyramidal and there is truth to these statements: you get what you pay for and you reap what you sow (or should that be sew or so? a good editor knows ).

The issue isn't can it get done less expensively; the issue is what level of quality is "good enough". As you wrote:



Ultimately, the questions are How good is pretty good? and Is pretty good good enough? (Of course, it isn't clear what pretty good means.) As you note, traditional publishers are successful because they do spend the money.

Tens of thousands have not been sold...of my book or of MANY, MANY books published by trad publishers! I've been very fortunate and had a couple of reviews done by blogs--but I am ebook only. I am not sending ARCs to newspapers because that is not my market. I don't have a print book for a lot of reasons.

It really depends on the goals for each individual book. There are many traditionally published books that are lucky to get a review or two. I know--I used to be a reviewer for a large review site. (Not newspaper). I'm not claiming it is the same thing, but what I do know from the experience was that I talked to editors--that were trying to get books reviewed. Coverage of any kind is very important and it was very difficult for them to get print coverage (locus, mystery magazines, newspapers and/or blogs.) It's difficult for EVERYONE. This was true whether they were small or medium--and we also had many a large publisher asking us to do reviews. They could easily pay for an ad in the New York times, but books need multiple reviews and continued coverage, whether traditional or not.

I do not in any way claim to be competing with the big houses. My point is that not only do I not compete, I don't have to pay their prices for services--nor do I charge 25 dollars for a book. Like any market, it's a supply/demand and finding customers that want what I have and are willing to pay a given price. Yes, I'm after some of those same customers that could buy only from a traditional publisher--but my costs are less so if my sales are less, I could actually make the same amount of money.

Good enough is in the eye of the reader. Sadly, my book will fail for some readers I am sure. It might be plot. It might be characterization. But that is true of any book--they aren't all sure things or traditional publishers wouldn't have failures either.

as for your phrase:
Highly skilled editors cost more but bring more to the table than just running spellcheck.

Thankfully, so do some inexpensive editors.

I am not disparaging big houses or editors of any kind either. I love many a book from them.

Maria

[BearMountainBooks]

Originally Posted by rhadin

Ultimately, the questions are How good is pretty good? and Is pretty good good enough? (Of course, it isn't clear what pretty good means.) As you note, traditional publishers are successful because they do spend the money.

Actually, they are successful in part because they spend money. I actually think they need to lower their costs and work on their business model. Their real success ultimately comes from the authors--they have to attract and buy wonderful stories. Only after that can they put them into various formats/covers/marketing plans. It's a team effort, not entirely a "we get what we pay for" model.

[rhadin]

Originally Posted by tompe

So how many man hour are you talking about here? And how many pages in the book?

Neither by themselves is an indicator of what final cost will be. Final cost does include man hours if the charge is by the hour; the charge can also be by the project or by the manuscript page or by the word or by many other formulations. Pages are generally irrelevant unless you are talking about manuscript pages which differ significantly from printed pages.

Probably more important in the cost factor is what tasks the editor is to do. Editing can range from "simple" line editing for grammar and spelling only to "complex" or developmental editing which goes to structure and fact checking, along with grammar and spelling and myriad other functions. The more "complex" the editing, the higher the cost.

Also factored into the cost is specialized knowledge. For example, if the book is about medicine, an editor who has some base knowledge of the medicine involved and thus is more likely to question something than an editor who has no familiarity with the subject matter will charge more for that knowledge and skill. Similarly, if part of the editor's job is to code the manuscript for the typesetting, the charge will be higher than without coding.

A manuscript that is well-written to start with will cost less to edit than one that is poorly written and confusing. Similarly, if the author's native language is other than the language in which the book is to be published, that may raise difficulties and increase the price.

There are a lot of factors involved in establishing the final editorial costs of a manuscript.

[rhadin]

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

Would you like to state your rates, rhadin, in the interests of full disclosure?

Why are my rates relevant to the discussion? And what full disclosure do I have to make?

[tompe]

Originally Posted by rhadin

Neither by themselves is an indicator of what final cost will be. Final cost does include man hours if the charge is by the hour; the charge can also be by the project or by the manuscript page or by the word or by many other formulations. Pages are generally irrelevant unless you are talking about manuscript pages which differ significantly from printed pages.

Probably more important in the cost factor is what tasks the editor is to do. Editing can range from "simple" line editing for grammar and spelling only to "complex" or developmental editing which goes to structure and fact checking, along with grammar and spelling and myriad other functions. The more "complex" the editing, the higher the cost.

Also factored into the cost is specialized knowledge. For example, if the book is about medicine, an editor who has some base knowledge of the medicine involved and thus is more likely to question something than an editor who has no familiarity with the subject matter will charge more for that knowledge and skill. Similarly, if part of the editor's job is to code the manuscript for the typesetting, the charge will be higher than without coding.

A manuscript that is well-written to start with will cost less to edit than one that is poorly written and confusing. Similarly, if the author's native language is other than the language in which the book is to be published, that may raise difficulties and increase the price.

There are a lot of factors involved in establishing the final editorial costs of a manuscript.

But I still have no idea if you are talking about 10 or 100 or 1000 hours of work. And I asked about your $50000 example. What was the title of the book?