Did anyone actually defect to ebooks from hardcovers?

[WT Sharpe]

The only time, past or present, I've deliberately sought Hardcover books to buy is when the books were special to me and I wanted to keep or display them. That hasn't changed.

Obviously I prefer reading e-books or I wouldn't be here, but I still read paperbacks when I can't find an e-version or when a book isn't a good fit for the current generation of e-readers (such as the color-coded The Five Gospels: The Search for the Authentic Words of Jesus by the Fellows of the Jesus Seminar).

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

Publishers can still make a profit on books that don't earn-out their advance.

Oh, certainly.

And an agent normally tries to negotiate an advance high enough that it won't earn out. More money up front for the author, bigger cut up front for the agent, and at least marginally higher incentive for the publisher to try to actually sell the book.

But publishing a book is a bet, and the size of bet to place is on the publisher. If they bet wrong, blaming the author is at best disingenuous.
______
Dennis

[ficbot]

I agree that things can overlap. For example, I read a Doctorow book in ebook and then bought the paper version for someone else as a gift.

I guess when I refer to what the publishers call 'cannibalizing' I don't mean art books, cookbooks and the like. I mean (and I think they mean too) that in the past you would have bought the hardback of that particular book, and you are buying the ebook instead of this hardback you otherwise would have bought. So, if there is no snowballs's chance you ever would have bought the hardback, it is not a cannibalized sale. And likewise, if there is no way you would have bought the ebook, great, enjoy your art books and cookbooks and whatever

I just wonder for something that hasn't got pictures and is just plain mass-market words, how serious the 'problem' of 'I would have spent $40 on the hardback and now I am not' really is. It seems like a lot of us get our books---e and otherwise---used, on sale, in remainder bins etc. I just wonder how many people truly are in the position where they actually used to buy full-price hardbacks and are now buying the ebook version instead.

[fugazied]

I rarely used to buy hardcovers, they are just too expensive usually. I spend time in Australia and they charge $45 for some hardbacks, which is about $40 USD. Even before ebooks there was no way I would plop that much down on a book so I would always go for the paperbacks..

[charleski]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

The author's advance is a cost to the publisher. It's a subsidy to the author.

The point is that a books that debuts as a MMPB is unlikely to bring the author more than a couple of thousand dollars (if they're lucky - advances for some Romance genres are down to a few hundred). On average, the level of remuneration will be reflected in the quality of the work.

There's a reasonably healthy market at the low-end, largely driven by people who read huge amounts of minor variations on the same thing. It's a viable business model, but one in which the literary quality of the output is of little concern.

But it's not a model I want to see adopted by the industry as a whole. I want to see good authors earning advances that let them take some time off from their day-job, and that's not going to happen if their book debuts as a $6 PB unless they write a book a month.

If you pay peanuts, you get monkeys.

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by charleski

The point is that a books that debuts as a MMPB is unlikely to bring the author more than a couple of thousand dollars (if they're lucky - advances for some Romance genres are down to a few hundred). On average, the level of remuneration will be reflected in the quality of the work.

What major romance publisher do you know that pays an advance that low?

There's a reasonably healthy market at the low-end, largely driven by people who read huge amounts of minor variations on the same thing. It's a viable business model, but one in which the literary quality of the output is of little concern.

There has always been a segment of the market like that. The Harlequin Romance is the usual example pointed to, but there are publishers devoted to serving specific market segments that specialize in particular types of things. Pocket Books' Star Trek line is another. A higher end example is Baen Books, publishing mid-level action/adventure SF/fantasy. They'll do very well by a David Weber or David Drake. They are unlikely to publish a Jonathan Carroll or Graham Joyce.

But it's not a model I want to see adopted by the industry as a whole. I want to see good authors earning advances that let them take some time off from their day-job, and that's not going to happen if their book debuts as a $6 PB unless they write a book a month.

And good authors do. But it takes them a while to reach that stage, and some unfortunately don't.

Incidentally, the average price for an MMPB these days is $8. I haven't seen one at $6 in some time.

If you pay peanuts, you get monkeys.

Not always. Given the number of people going for what are effectively vanity press deals under different names, you might well get decent stuff, even at minuscule advances. (And there are a few experiments going on by small presses using a "No advance but higher royalty level"approach to reduce the risk to the publisher but reward the author if the book succeeds.)

The trick is building the author to the level where their sales are enough that they can quit their day jobs. (For most, frankly, this will not happen.)
_____
Dennis

[kazbates]

Originally Posted by ficbot

I agree that things can overlap. For example, I read a Doctorow book in ebook and then bought the paper version for someone else as a gift.

I guess when I refer to what the publishers call 'cannibalizing' I don't mean art books, cookbooks and the like. I mean (and I think they mean too) that in the past you would have bought the hardback of that particular book, and you are buying the ebook instead of this hardback you otherwise would have bought. So, if there is no snowballs's chance you ever would have bought the hardback, it is not a cannibalized sale. And likewise, if there is no way you would have bought the ebook, great, enjoy your art books and cookbooks and whatever

I just wonder for something that hasn't got pictures and is just plain mass-market words, how serious the 'problem' of 'I would have spent $40 on the hardback and now I am not' really is. It seems like a lot of us get our books---e and otherwise---used, on sale, in remainder bins etc. I just wonder how many people truly are in the position where they actually used to buy full-price hardbacks and are now buying the ebook version instead.

I know that I have a few author's (no more than 5) whose hardcover releases I consistently purchased. However, I never actually paid the full price. Generally, about a week (or even less) after the HC book is released, I can purchase it for a significant discount (sometimes as much as 50%) at my local warehouse club. This includes authors like Nora Roberts who are very popular. Nowadays, I rarely buy the HC and will wait for the ebook. I have enough ebooks to keep me busy for awhile and I know I the book want won't be sold out by the time I go to purchase it because ebook supplies seem inexhaustible.

[Tattncat]

I used to buy hardbacks (New and Used) depending on the book, and some paperbacks. Whenever possible (which was quite often) I purchased books from library book sales, used book stores and garage sales. However, I spent the same monthly book budget then that I spend now (dollar-wise). Now I can and do spend the same monthly amount, but the money goes to new eBook purchases (obviously), so I have to conclude that the publishing houses are not losing sales. Instead they (at least in my case) are coming out way ahead in units sold. IMHO

If the publishers actually follow through with their stated intent to delay the release of new eBooks until four months after their initial hardcover release, I doubt if that will raise their paper sales. In other words, eBook readers (like me) will not jump the electronic ship and go back to paper. Although they may find more people out there looking for pirated copies. The publishers may have made a really big mistake.

In my case, I have enough PD reading lined up, I'll just wait the four
months or so.

[lilac_jive]

Did anyone mention sending a link to this thread to Simon & Schuster?

I have to say, it totally backs up what I was expecting.

[charleski]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

What major romance publisher do you know that pays an advance that low?

http://www.carolynjewel.com/craft/warnings.shtml
http://answers.google.com/answers/th...id/136883.html
The threshold to membership of the RWA's Published Author's Network is an advance of $1000.

A higher end example is Baen Books, publishing mid-level action/adventure SF/fantasy. They'll do very well by a David Weber or David Drake. They are unlikely to publish a Jonathan Carroll or Graham Joyce.

Baen has a highly-stratified publishing strategy. They put out full-price hardbacks for authors with established selling-power and trade PBs for those who sell at a lower level. Their ARC program is a canny way to get the more avid fans to pay for a book twice, and do so with a smile. As you yourself noted, they're actively looking for ways to add value to their books in order to attract customers at a premium price-point.

I'd say Baen's strategy is about as far as you can get from the typical genre-fiction race to the bottom. And it shows in the quality of the work that they publish.

Given the number of people going for what are effectively vanity press deals under different names, you might well get decent stuff, even at minuscule advances. (And there are a few experiments going on by small presses using a "No advance but higher royalty level"approach to reduce the risk to the publisher but reward the author if the book succeeds.)

Self-publishing is a serious option for some genre writers, take a look at J.A. Konrath's breakdown. It's instructive to see how exquisitely price-sensitive his sales are, demonstrating the extent to which this has become a commodity market. If all the books on the shelf are much the same, then you might as well go for the cheapest one.

[astra]

I used to buy hardback editions only. Never ever full price. Amazon's price only - meaning 25%-30% off at least.
I still buy once in a while a hardback edition but soon will stop. I just want to finish buying Malazan series and Wheel of Time. After that no more, unless some deluxe of my favourite.

[user42]

I rarely bought hardbacks simply because I dislike their size -- I'd wait for the paperback to come out simply because I preferred the smaller size over the hardback form factor.

Now it's pretty much exclusively eBooks, with the exception of Terry Pratchett's novels which I still purchase in paperback as well.

[orwell2k]

Does anyone else see a parallel between the clearly falacious linking of hardcover customers and eBook users to the music and movie industries supposed "false dollar losses" claims against piracy?

I know we're not talking the same thing here - claiming lost hardcover sales vs eBook purchases is diffferent from claiming loss of sales due to piracy. But the flavour and desperation of such a claim, one whose assumptions appear to have been so easily countered in this thread, seems almost to have come from the same mind-bending PR gurus that manufactured the recording industry claims to get sympathy for their anachronistic DRM and pricing schemes - and we have seen we're that ended!

Perhaps it's a desperate sign the publishers can see the writing on the wall (no pun intended)?

[astra]

If they don't want to loose money on hardback edition sales, they should start to publish ebooks in DRM-free formats and for decent prices, no more than paperback editions.

[poshm]

I've only ever bought HB books for a few of my fav books but never at full price. These books are for display only because hardbacks are too big and clumsy to read. Not to mention they take up a lot of storage space we don't have.

Now I'm into ebooks, I can't imagine going back to paperbooks so if publishers don't have the ebooks I'm willing to pay for, I won't be tempted to look for a paper version. Although I may look for the audiobook format instead.