Classic B&N Switching to ePub a Sneaky Move? - Page 2

Jim Lester · 12-14-2009, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

You mean can an individual book use both DRM mechanisms? That's an excellent question, and I haven't got the faintest idea! My "gut feeling" is that it would be one or the other, but that's just a guess.

On a particular file it is currently one or the other. Also if B&N is producing the file, then it is definitely the password based one and not the AdobeID based one.

It would be interesting for someone with a nook who has downloaded an ePub file onto the nook to try to redownload the file from a PC/Mac (ie not just copy it from the nook). Do you get an ePub or a .pdb?

wallcraft · 12-14-2009, 06:38 PM

I don't have a Nook, but I downloaded Star Wars: Lost Tribe of the Sith #2: Skyborn by John Jackson Miller and Already Dead by Charlie Huston, both of which are currently free at B&N, to my Windows PC and they were password protected ePubs. I also have Already Dead as an ePub from Sony. Sony eBL is standard mobile ADE. The B&N Reader is quite different, allowing the selection of the font and justification.

LessPaul · 12-14-2009, 07:06 PM

I downloaded several free ebook from Barnes and Noble which were in epub format, and all were readable from within Calibre.

I also have a PC Magazine subscription from B&N which came as an epub. It is also readable within Calibre.

wallcraft · 12-14-2009, 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LessPaul

I downloaded several free ebook from Barnes and Noble which were in epub format, and all were readable from within Calibre.

Which titles? The two I referenced are definitely DRMed ePubs.

LessPaul · 12-14-2009, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wallcraft

Which titles? The two I referenced are definitely DRMed ePubs.

Adventures of Sherlock Holmes
Crime and Punishment
David Copperfield
Gulliver's Travels
The Hunchback of Notre Dame
War and Peace

wallcraft · 12-14-2009, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LessPaul

Adventures of Sherlock Holmes
Crime and Punishment
David Copperfield
Gulliver's Travels
The Hunchback of Notre Dame
War and Peace

These are probably Google ePubs, which are DRM free at B&N and at the Sony store.

JJoyce · 12-14-2009, 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSWolf

But unless people know what's going on, they'll end up buying ePub that they don't want with DRM they cannot use.

Don't get me wrong, I absolutely do agree that it's a horrible decision for B&N to not provide some way of identifying which eBooks in their storefront are ePubs and which are still eReader.

I was just pointing out that once Adobe's got updates pushed out it shouldn't be a situation where people are stuck with ePubs that can only be used on a nook or B&N's apps.

JSWolf · 12-16-2009, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JJoyce

Don't get me wrong, I absolutely do agree that it's a horrible decision for B&N to not provide some way of identifying which eBooks in their storefront are ePubs and which are still eReader.

I was just pointing out that once Adobe's got updates pushed out it shouldn't be a situation where people are stuck with ePubs that can only be used on a nook or B&N's apps.

We had a solution to the problem of the tower of e-Bable. Now B&N once again makes the tower of e-Bable a problem once again. We had a perfectly good workable solution with ePub and it's DRM. Now B&N steps in and creates a new DRM to rock the boat and muddy the waters and give us no ends of grief. Plus, give the fact that I cannot liberate ePub with this new DRM, II won't be buying anything with that DRM. I'm hoping other eBook shops won't take this new DRm on board. But if they do, I do hope all the ePub they offer will be available in both DRM schemes so we can pick the one we want (the one we can liberate).

JJoyce · 12-18-2009, 01:03 AM

I guess I'll try this one more time, so...

From everything we've been told and shown, this ISN'T Barnes & Noble introducing some new DRM scheme.

This is Barnes and Noble using Adobe encryption with a new authentication scheme that Adobe's incorporating in to the new Adobe Reader SDKs and the next version of Adobe Digital Editions.

It's all part of the greater consortium that's pushing to standardize on Adobe DRM for the ePub format.

It's a great thing for ebooks that have been divided by incompatible formats.

But apparently that's a bad thing as it's become obvious that what's upsetting you is that these standardized ePubs Adobe's pulling together are going to have DRM on them.

You know what? I really don't care if they do or don't.

As long as the files can be read by a nook or a Sony or a Plastic Logic device or whatever e-reader supports what appears to be heading toward an eventual standardization of the Adobe solution, Adobe can use uncrackable elliptical curve ciphers and one time pads for their DRM implementation for all I care.

DRM in the publishing industry is a fact of life for now and will be for the immediate future.

If it has to be around, better for it to be one solution (Adobe) as opposed to Amazon, sony, Borders, Barnes and Noble all coming up with different formats that aren't interoperable.

JSWolf · 12-19-2009, 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JJoyce

I guess I'll try this one more time, so...

From everything we've been told and shown, this ISN'T Barnes & Noble introducing some new DRM scheme.

This is Barnes and Noble using Adobe encryption with a new authentication scheme that Adobe's incorporating in to the new Adobe Reader SDKs and the next version of Adobe Digital Editions.

It's all part of the greater consortium that's pushing to standardize on Adobe DRM for the ePub format.

It's a great thing for ebooks that have been divided by incompatible formats.

But apparently that's a bad thing as it's become obvious that what's upsetting you is that these standardized ePubs Adobe's pulling together are going to have DRM on them.

You know what? I really don't care if they do or don't.

As long as the files can be read by a nook or a Sony or a Plastic Logic device or whatever e-reader supports what appears to be heading toward an eventual standardization of the Adobe solution, Adobe can use uncrackable elliptical curve ciphers and one time pads for their DRM implementation for all I care.

DRM in the publishing industry is a fact of life for now and will be for the immediate future.

If it has to be around, better for it to be one solution (Adobe) as opposed to Amazon, sony, Borders, Barnes and Noble all coming up with different formats that aren't interoperable.

You don't get it. This is B&N introducing a new DRM scheme. We already have a standard DRM with ePub. B&N comes along and decides they want a different DRM. So they create this new DRM and convince Adobe to go along with it. Just because Adobe goes along with it doesn't make it any less wrong then it already is. DRM is bad enough as it is. But to have two DRM schemes on ePub is just wrong. Adobe did not decide to come out with this new DRM. B&N did it. And what B&N did was to get Adobe to agree to it. Hence CS5 due out in 2010.

But on B&N's website, they are selling ePub. They don't say they are. They say they sell eReader. So if you buy a newly released eBook, there's a good chance it will be in ePub. And because you bought it from B&N, chances are you wanted eReader. But if you do download the sample and find that it is ePub and then decide you want the eBook, you go ahead and purchase it. But then you find you have no use for it as you cannot do anything with it because the DRM is different. You don't know this is why it's useless. You just think something is wrong with either the eBook or ADE.

So to sell ePub with a new DRM without telling anyone is a very sneaky move.

As of right now, these ePub with this new DRM are not standardized. The ePub with the original DRM are the standardized ones. All Readers with ADE can display ePub with the original DRM. Only the nook can display ePub with the new DRM. That makes it non-standard for now. I have no idea if other companies will go for it. But until they do, this new DRM needs to go away. And if it did go away, we would not have any problems with B&N selling it without notifying the customers.

Kris777 · 12-19-2009, 11:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSWolf

I did download a free book from B&N and it is in ePub. Reader Library and Adobe Digital Editions cannot view this. So basically, unless you have a nook, don't buy any eBooks from B&N as you won't know if you are getting ePub or eReader.

yes, buy books from fictionwise.com and ereader.com, upload it on your jetBook and enjoy reading it

.

nobody complaint that Amazon sell books in their format that can be used on Kindle eBook reader only but why you complaint that B&N sell books in ePub format that works only on Nook eBook reader? I'm sure that B&N made it with the purpose: people will buy Nook to read books from B&N website.

JSWolf · 12-20-2009, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kris777

yes, buy books from fictionwise.com and ereader.com, upload it on your jetBook and enjoy reading it

.

nobody complaint that Amazon sell books in their format that can be used on Kindle eBook reader only but why you complaint that B&N sell books in ePub format that works only on Nook eBook reader? I'm sure that B&N made it with the purpose: people will buy Nook to read books from B&N website.

Amazon changed Mobipocket files to work only on the Kindle. This we know. But Amazon did not call the Kindle only eBooks Mobipocket. They call them AZW. So nobody is going to get mixed up as to what DRM is on what eBook.

B&N started selling eReader eBooks. Then B&N took ePub and added a different DRM to them. Then B&N started sneaking ePub into their eBook store to sell without anything saying they are ePub and if you find out it's ePub from downloading a sample, there's nothing to tell you it's a different DRM. So ou go and buy the ePub and get one you cannot use unless you have a nook.

Nobody complained about Amazon like this because Amazon was not being sneaky and underhanded.

Houndx · 12-20-2009, 02:17 PM

Wow, for people who are willing to spend several hundred dollars on reading devices I'm seeing a real problem here with reading comprehension.

The situation before was-
Stores A, B, and C sell epubs. Readers A, B and C can read epubs sold from either store A, B or C. This was a good thing. You knew that buying an epub meant that you could read it.

The situation now is-
Stores A, B, C and D sell epubs. Readers A, B, C and D can read epubs sold from stores A, B, and C but only reader D can read epubs sold from store D. To compound this issue, store D does not make it clear anywhere on their site that their epubs are different and only work on reader D. Further, store D implies that their epubs will work with readers A, B and C. Additionally, books from store D used to work on non-traditional readers 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6 but now only work on non-traditional readers 1, 4, and 5 but their website specifically says that all the old non-traditional readers still work. Hey, to make it even worse there's almost a 100% chance that non-traditional readers 2 and 6 will NEVER be updated to work and the chances that readers A, B and C will be updated to work with the new DRM scheme are, at best, 50/50 each.

Let's boil it down for readers who cannot comprehend. Which of the two examples given above LOOKS more simple? The first, right? Right. It's B&N's fault that the first went away and that the second is now the reality, and that is why some people aren't happy about it. It's not that DRM exists, etc. It's that the new reality of epubs has gone from simple to stupidly complex.

JJoyce · 12-20-2009, 02:38 PM

Alright.

I'm not going to descend to the level of slinging slurs and insults as some obviously have.

But for those that seem so convinced that B&N is some big evil monster destroying ebooks, here's the reality of it.

Barnes and Noble chose to adopt Adobe ePub solution for their conversion from ereader format.

As part of that process, Adobe executives decided they liked B&N's "social protection" built in to the existing ereader DRM scheme. So much so that they agreed to license it from B&N to incorporate it in to their ePub DRM, creating two authentication options; the pre-existing one and the username/password combination licensed from B&N.

Adobe could have required B&N to use only the existing authentication option at the time B&N decided to support the ePub standard as Adobe has backed it. It would've meant no lending options of course, so Adobe didn't insist on it.

The reality as it stands now is you have the exact same ePub standard, only with two authentication options (not DRM).

The newest one is supported by Adobe's newest version of the RMSDK as Adobe has publicly stated several times.

Any device manufacturer that has paid Adobe's licensing fee will be able to update his device (and quite possibly may be required to do so by Adobe's licensing terms).

As well, Adobe's already said that ADE support for the new "social" option is coming with the next release of ADE sometime in 2010.

In short, the reality of the situation as it stands is far from the fear and doubt being peddled by certain posters with their "B&N/nook is destroying ebooks" claims.

In fact, I'd take it a step further and tentatively say that such claims and accusations very well could be defamatory and (depending on the state) could reach the levels of libel per se.

Caution and circumspection would be well-advised all around.

Houndx · 12-20-2009, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JJoyce

Any device manufacturer that has paid Adobe's licensing fee will be able to update his device (and quite possibly may be required to do so by Adobe's licensing terms).

This is, at best, naive. Manufacturers that own a bookstore, like Sony, or that have relationships with stores they do not own have almost no incentive to update their devices to allow owners access to B&N's book store.

The only safe assumption to make, given the current situation and from countless past examples, is that an ability your device lacks right now is one that it will never have.

12-14-2009, 06:38 PM	#17
wallcraft reader Posts: 6,977 Karma: 5183568 Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Mississippi, USA Device: Kindle 3, Kobo Glo HD	I don't have a Nook, but I downloaded Star Wars: Lost Tribe of the Sith #2: Skyborn by John Jackson Miller and Already Dead by Charlie Huston, both of which are currently free at B&N, to my Windows PC and they were password protected ePubs. I also have Already Dead as an ePub from Sony. Sony eBL is standard mobile ADE. The B&N Reader is quite different, allowing the selection of the font and justification. Attached Thumbnails

12-20-2009, 02:17 PM	#28
Houndx Groupie Posts: 159 Karma: 149 Join Date: Jul 2009 Device: A81 MID, Dell Streak	Wow, for people who are willing to spend several hundred dollars on reading devices I'm seeing a real problem here with reading comprehension. The situation before was- Stores A, B, and C sell epubs. Readers A, B and C can read epubs sold from either store A, B or C. This was a good thing. You knew that buying an epub meant that you could read it. The situation now is- Stores A, B, C and D sell epubs. Readers A, B, C and D can read epubs sold from stores A, B, and C but only reader D can read epubs sold from store D. To compound this issue, store D does not make it clear anywhere on their site that their epubs are different and only work on reader D. Further, store D implies that their epubs will work with readers A, B and C. Additionally, books from store D used to work on non-traditional readers 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6 but now only work on non-traditional readers 1, 4, and 5 but their website specifically says that all the old non-traditional readers still work. Hey, to make it even worse there's almost a 100% chance that non-traditional readers 2 and 6 will NEVER be updated to work and the chances that readers A, B and C will be updated to work with the new DRM scheme are, at best, 50/50 each. Let's boil it down for readers who cannot comprehend. Which of the two examples given above LOOKS more simple? The first, right? Right. It's B&N's fault that the first went away and that the second is now the reality, and that is why some people aren't happy about it. It's not that DRM exists, etc. It's that the new reality of epubs has gone from simple to stupidly complex. Last edited by Houndx; 12-20-2009 at 02:31 PM.

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12-14-2009, 07:06 PM	#18
LessPaul Connoisseur Posts: 50 Karma: 160 Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Dewitt, MI Device: Kindle Paperwhite 2021 / PC / iPad	I downloaded several free ebook from Barnes and Noble which were in epub format, and all were readable from within Calibre. I also have a PC Magazine subscription from B&N which came as an epub. It is also readable within Calibre.

12-18-2009, 01:03 AM	#24
JJoyce Member Posts: 22 Karma: 10 Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: DFW Device: nook	I guess I'll try this one more time, so... From everything we've been told and shown, this ISN'T Barnes & Noble introducing some new DRM scheme. This is Barnes and Noble using Adobe encryption with a new authentication scheme that Adobe's incorporating in to the new Adobe Reader SDKs and the next version of Adobe Digital Editions. It's all part of the greater consortium that's pushing to standardize on Adobe DRM for the ePub format. It's a great thing for ebooks that have been divided by incompatible formats. But apparently that's a bad thing as it's become obvious that what's upsetting you is that these standardized ePubs Adobe's pulling together are going to have DRM on them. You know what? I really don't care if they do or don't. As long as the files can be read by a nook or a Sony or a Plastic Logic device or whatever e-reader supports what appears to be heading toward an eventual standardization of the Adobe solution, Adobe can use uncrackable elliptical curve ciphers and one time pads for their DRM implementation for all I care. DRM in the publishing industry is a fact of life for now and will be for the immediate future. If it has to be around, better for it to be one solution (Adobe) as opposed to Amazon, sony, Borders, Barnes and Noble all coming up with different formats that aren't interoperable.

12-20-2009, 02:38 PM	#29
JJoyce Member Posts: 22 Karma: 10 Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: DFW Device: nook	Alright. I'm not going to descend to the level of slinging slurs and insults as some obviously have. But for those that seem so convinced that B&N is some big evil monster destroying ebooks, here's the reality of it. Barnes and Noble chose to adopt Adobe ePub solution for their conversion from ereader format. As part of that process, Adobe executives decided they liked B&N's "social protection" built in to the existing ereader DRM scheme. So much so that they agreed to license it from B&N to incorporate it in to their ePub DRM, creating two authentication options; the pre-existing one and the username/password combination licensed from B&N. Adobe could have required B&N to use only the existing authentication option at the time B&N decided to support the ePub standard as Adobe has backed it. It would've meant no lending options of course, so Adobe didn't insist on it. The reality as it stands now is you have the exact same ePub standard, only with two authentication options (not DRM). The newest one is supported by Adobe's newest version of the RMSDK as Adobe has publicly stated several times. Any device manufacturer that has paid Adobe's licensing fee will be able to update his device (and quite possibly may be required to do so by Adobe's licensing terms). As well, Adobe's already said that ADE support for the new "social" option is coming with the next release of ADE sometime in 2010. In short, the reality of the situation as it stands is far from the fear and doubt being peddled by certain posters with their "B&N/nook is destroying ebooks" claims. In fact, I'd take it a step further and tentatively say that such claims and accusations very well could be defamatory and (depending on the state) could reach the levels of libel per se. Caution and circumspection would be well-advised all around.