Secret Copyright Law Reported

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by kennyc

It starts with understanding and social change. It's not going to happen overnight and it cannot be forced, it can only be managed.

You have to encourage and allow the honest people to be honest. We must teach our children ethics instead of the current culture of 'whateveryoucangetawaywithislegal.' For the others we break out the bazookas, the rack, the iron lady....

And hope they aren't quicker at the trigger than you are.....

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

And hope they aren't quicker at the trigger than you are.....

That's why I train!

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by kennyc

It starts with understanding and social change. It's not going to happen overnight and it cannot be forced, it can only be managed.

You have to encourage and allow the honest people to be honest. We must teach our children ethics instead of the current culture of 'whateveryoucangetawaywithislegal.' For the others we break out the bazookas, the rack, the iron lady....

What really amazes me is that anybody would pay for anything at all nowadays. I mean, I can only imagine that people are paying now out of some antiquated sense of honour; or misguided belief that it actually means a damn thing to the creators. It's not like the artists see even %10 of that money you give. It's not like you're supporting anything good when you buy products from a big publishing house.

Seriously, if the people harping on about piracy gave ten damns about the actual creators, we'd all be living in a better world.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by kennyc

We must teach our children ethics instead of the current culture of 'whateveryoucangetawaywithislegal.'

I teach my children that you don't own your ideas. You are granted certain controls over the use of those ideas, in order to encourage putting them out in public, but there's no "property" in a thought.

I also teach them that it's unethical to charge as much as you can just because the law will enforce your right to do so, if you could be helping people and charge a lot less. It'd be legal to create a pill that cures leukemia, and charge half a million dollars for the use of it--but if the pill only costs $5 to make, and was created in just two weeks of inspired labwork, that's not ethical.

Same with books that can inspire people. There's no reason for out-of-print books to remain unavailable except blatant greed or outright selfishness ("it's MINE and you can't have it!"); I teach my kids that neither of those is an ethical motive for behavior.

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by Moejoe

What really amazes me is that anybody would pay for anything at all nowadays. I mean, I can only imagine that people are paying now out of some antiquated sense of honour; or misguided belief that it actually means a damn thing to the creators. It's not like the artists see even %10 of that money you give. It's not like you're supporting anything good when you buy products from a big publishing house.

Seriously, if the people harping on about piracy gave ten damns about the actual creators, we'd all be living in a better world.

The best description of this is in the book (no e-book) of The Rational Individual by John Davidson and Lord Rees-Moog. They describe the mind-set changes at the end of chivalry at the beginning of the book (and the reasons for it). They are fully relevant to the changes in I.P. today.

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

The best description of this is in the book (no e-book) of The Rational Individual by John Davidson and Lord Rees-Moog. They describe the mind-set changes at the end of chivalry at the beginning of the book (and the reasons for it). They are fully relevant to the changes in I.P. today.

I'll have to look that one up, thanks

[PKFFW]

Originally Posted by Moejoe

Let me ask you this; do you really believe (all your name-calling aside) that the tide of downloading can be stopped? Do you really think that there is anything that can be done to halt these 'criminal freeloaders' as you call them? What would you do to stop it, to make sure that every download equaled a sale?

My name calling? I did not actually call anyone a criminal freeloader. I was referring to the fact that many on the opposite side of the argument would dearly love to(and in many cases do) classify everyone who "file-shares" as a criminal freeloader.

But then, I'm sure an intelligent person such as yourself knows that already and are merely trying to be argumentative.

Originally Posted by Moejoe

I mean it's all well and good being angry and equating downloading to theft, but I haven't heard once how you're going to stop the sea-change in our society.

I have not equated downloading to theft. I agree there is a difference. "File-sharing", as it stands now, in many(but not all) cases is copyright infringement and not theft.

As for how to stop it, you can't. As I've said numerous times before, lots of people just want free stuff. They don't want to pay and never will. As you yourself posted above, it amazes you why anyone would pay for anything. There is no stopping that attitude.

Thankfully, most people do believe that creative work is worth supporting by monetary payment just like any other type of work. Until the day of that hoped for Utopia arrives where all work is automated, all needs catered for freely and people can just do whatever inspires them for the sheer joy of it and not have to worry about paying the bills, then I believe those who do believe in paying a reasonable monetary compensation for creative work they wish to enjoy will prevail and in so doing sustain those who just want free stuff.

Cheers,
PKFFW

[Sonist]

Originally Posted by Moejoe

What really amazes me is that anybody would pay for anything at all nowadays. I mean, I can only imagine that people are paying now out of some antiquated sense of honour; or misguided belief that it actually means a damn thing to the creators....

Most people will pay for good content and good design, and for convenience. This is how iTunes works.

In fact, I don't think Amazon is far off the mark, as many of the titles I've purchased seem to be about $6-7, which for a good portion of purchasers, would invite at least some impulse shopping, when combined with the convenience of instant acquisition. DRM is the main drawback for me, because it still takes a little effort to strip the DRM (and to download a sample, to make sure it's not Topaz.)

You'll never stop "piracy," but this has never been the case before - some copied audio and video tapes, some photocopied books. For all desirable stuff, there was always a balance, at a certain price-point, where enough potential purchasers bought a title, for the content creators to realize profit.

What this contemplated treaty appears to attempt, is to tip the balance in favor of the content creators, in what is essentially a non-competitive market field.

So, not only would corporate interests police our internet use, but without the threat of "piracy," they can more freely engage in price-gouging.

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by Sonist

Most people will pay for good content and good design, and for convenience. This is how iTunes works.

In fact, I don't think Amazon is far off the mark, as many of the titles I've purchased seem to be about $6-7, which for a good portion of purchasers, would invite at least some impulse shopping, when combined with the convenience of instant acquisition. DRM is the main drawback for me, because it still takes a little effort to strip the DRM (and to download a sample, to make sure it's not Topaz.)

You'll never stop "piracy," but this has never been the case before - some copied audio and video tapes, some photocopied books. For all desirable stuff, there was always a balance, at a certain price-point, where enough potential purchasers bought a title, for the content creators to realize profit.

What this proposed treaty appears to attempt, is to tip the balance in favor of the content creators, in what is essentially a non-competitive market field.

So, not only would corporate interests police our internet use, but without the threat of "piracy," they can more freely engage in price-gouging.

I never understood the 'convenience' argument, when piracy is more convenient and has better quality.

Itunes - you need an account, you need a credit card, you're limited at bitrate (320k?) in AAC. Worst of all you need to install Itunes.

Piracy - No credit card needed, chat to music lovers all over the world, get your music in everything from low end WMA/mp3/aac to high end FLAC and other Lossless formats (plus a lot of live bootleg and rare stuff).

/

Blu-Ray - tied to physical media, may need firmware updates on player, expensive, DRM'd.

1080p MKV - Smaller in size, portable on hard-drives, no DRM, full DTS audio. Plays from most good media servers. Again, a community grows around it that you can become part of.

/


The only barrier to entry with piracy is knowledge. And with piracy there are always enthusiastic, fun-loving communities that grow around the hobby.

[Sonist]

Originally Posted by Moejoe

I never understood the 'convenience' argument....

That's why I specifically said "most," and not "all," people....

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by Sonist

That's why I specifically said "most," and not "all," people....

I stand corrected

[Sonist]

Originally Posted by Moejoe

I stand corrected

corrected, maybe..., but also unique (in a good way )

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by Sonist

corrected, maybe..., but also unique (in a good way )

That's what my mother always says (and also random strangers in the street, which is worrying)

But one thing I'm sure of, the best move I ever made in my life was to turn away from the traditional publishing game when I had my shot. I wouldn't trade all the money in the world for the exciting times we live in right now. God, but it's good to be alive and writing and on these here internets.

[calvin-c]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

I teach my children that you don't own your ideas. You are granted certain controls over the use of those ideas, in order to encourage putting them out in public, but there's no "property" in a thought.

I also teach them that it's unethical to charge as much as you can just because the law will enforce your right to do so, if you could be helping people and charge a lot less. It'd be legal to create a pill that cures leukemia, and charge half a million dollars for the use of it--but if the pill only costs $5 to make, and was created in just two weeks of inspired labwork, that's not ethical.

Same with books that can inspire people. There's no reason for out-of-print books to remain unavailable except blatant greed or outright selfishness ("it's MINE and you can't have it!"); I teach my kids that neither of those is an ethical motive for behavior.

This sounds so great-until your kids grow up & realize that you can't combat unethical behavior by being unethical yourself. (Hopefully you're teaching them that, along with these beliefs.)

An example of what I mean is the very common excuse: It's unethical that they charge so much so I'll just steal it. Even if it actually is unethical on the owner's part (questionable-do you also teach your children tolerance for people who have other beliefs?) it's also unethical on the thief's part.

And before somebody claims that copyright infringement isn't theft, this is about an excuse that's used as often for actual theft as it is for 'theft of IP'.

Doesn't matter whether the creator is ethical or not-the person taking it without payment is definitely unethical, IMO.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by Moejoe

... It's not like the artists see even %10 of that money you give. It's not like you're supporting anything good when you buy products from a big publishing house.

Seriously, if the people harping on about piracy gave ten damns about the actual creators, we'd all be living in a better world.

And this is a problem with the current publishing model which needs to be and will be addressed in this transition away from paper to digital. I would say there is nothing good, in the publishing industry, but there are a few things.

If I'm understanding you final statement, that is exactly what I said above.