What Exactly Should I Write About While In Israel?

[Bilbo1967]

Originally Posted by desertgrandma

Did you go to the magazine? How about this article

http://www.culturewars.com/2009/O%27Connell.htm

GARussels post was racist and inflammatory, and will not be condoned.

By me, anyway.

Well, my post was a kneejerk reaction without a great deal of checking (I recall somebody pulling me up for that before ).

I have looked at that magazine and it does seem clear that it is an anti-semitic rag that has no place in modern society.

I think we should acknowledge GARussels bravery in admitting his bigotry

[GA Russell]

Originally Posted by desertgrandma

GARussels post was racist and inflammatory, and will not be condoned.

Nothing racist about it! I don't blame the Jewish people for the actions of the Israeli government. I don't blame any people for the actions of a government.

It's clear that those of us in America are not getting the Palestinians' side of the story. I think that a book about a six-month stay in Israel is a terrific way to tell what one finds - the good, the bad and the ugly.

[GA Russell]

Originally Posted by Bilbo1967

I have looked at that magazine and it does seem clear that it is an anti-semitic rag that has no place in modern society.

Well, I'll have to let the editors of the magazine defend it. That's not my job.

But I will point out that labelling as "anti-semitic" (which I, and the Catholic Church as well, define to be the hatred of a race) a magazine that doesn't play footsie with the Israeli government is out of line. One need not hate Jews or be a bigot to believe that the Israeli government is not necessarily as pure as what the American press portrays it to be.

Furthermore, to say that a magazine "has no place in modern society" is an attitude that bad guys everywhere like to foment. The Israeli government has plenty of support in the American media. To squelch a dissenting view is unAmerican!

[Bilbo1967]

Originally Posted by GA Russell

Well, I'll have to let the editors of the magazine defend it. That's not my job.

But I will point out that labelling as "anti-semitic" (which I, and the Catholic Church as well, define to be the hatred of a race) a magazine that doesn't play footsie with the Israeli government is out of line. One need not hate Jews or be a bigot to believe that the Israeli government is not necessarily as pure as what the American press portrays it to be.

Furthermore, to say that a magazine "has no place in modern society" is an attitude that bad guys everywhere like to foment. The Israeli government has plenty of support in the American media. To squelch a dissenting view is unAmerican!

Not sure if you noticed or not, but I am not American and so accusing me of being unAmerican really bothers me not at all (of course, the fact that you feel 'unAmerican' is a crowning insult is only insulting to 95% of the world's population!).

Regardless of that, if being unAmerican means not standing silently by while idiots promote anti-semitic web sites, then, yes, I am unAmerican and proud of it.

[desertgrandma]

Originally Posted by GA Russell

Furthermore, to say that a magazine "has no place in modern society" is an attitude that bad guys everywhere like to foment. The Israeli government has plenty of support in the American media. To squelch a dissenting view is unAmerican!

A magazine which supports the theory that the holocaust is "unproven" certainly has no place in modern society.

[WT Sharpe]

Originally Posted by desertgrandma

A magazine which supports the theory that the holocaust is "unproven" certainly has no place in modern society.

To modify words attributed to Bernard Mannes Baruch to fit the current discussion...

Every magazine has a right to a point of view, but no magazine has a right to be wrong in its facts.

[Mobile Mason]

Originally Posted by GA Russell

I have read both of these items recently in Culture Wars Magazine.

That's obviously the most respectable magazine.
I mean really, where'd they get their references? The flying spaghetti monster?

As someone who is considering a permanent move to Israel, I find your remarks highly hilarious and at the same time distasteful. There is absolutely no proof to your claims whatsoever, and to source the same magazine that says that there is no proof that the holocaust ever happened makes me chuckle even more.

I've read Israeli law books looking for immigration policies over and over, and I do believe that my eye would have been caught if there was any kind of law allowing slavery in Israel. The closest thing to slavery that Israel has ever been close to was the fact that the legal status of foreign worker in Israel was under the supervision of the employer, and if you were fired, you would have been forced to leave the country. The employer could theoretically force employees from overseas to work more with the threat of being fired. This however, has been repealed as of a few years back.

Originally Posted by GA Russell

It's clear that those of us in America are not getting the Palestinians' side of the story.

Just for the benefit of everyone here, but there has never been a Palestinian State...ever, and so there has never been any Palestinians. Prior to the declaration of the Israel State in May of 1948, the land was under the management of the British Empire under the name "British Mandate of Palestine" for about twenty years. Before the British, there were the Ottoman Turks who ruled over the relatively unimportant piece of land we know as Israel. Before them, the Byzantine/Crusader Romans ruled over the area to protect Christian pilgrims from Muslim attackers. After a series of Islamic and Pre-Islamic Arab Kingdoms in the area, we have another group of Romans who just put down a revolt. The revolters being the Jews of Ancient Judea who were wishing to (and did for a while) expel the Romans from their homeland. Anywho, the contemporary name 'Palestine' is merely an anglicized version of the latin name for the area 'Philistia', which for those of us who know our Bibles well, is the living place of the ancient pre-Jewish Philistines who inhabited the area. The Philistines were a group of people who were related to the Greeks, not related to the Arab people group, unlike what many pro-Palestinian groups would like you to believe. Over time the Philistines were absorbed into the other surrounding non-Arab people groups, before most traces of them were lost in the genetic pool.

The point being, should we use the term 'Palestinian'? I don't think so, there has never been a Palestine. Should there be a Palestine? Well that's another debate entirely.

[GA Russell]

Well, some people seem to have their minds made up, and I have no interest in attempting to persuade them. But for the benefit of those reading this thread, let me explain the situation regarding the magazine, the link cited and the Holocaust.

When I was in high school in the 60s, we were taught that Hitler killed 6 million people, two-thirds of whom were Jewish. (As I recall, most of the remaining third were Polish Catholics.)

There are people today who make their living ensuring that the Holocaust is not forgotten. They have a party line that says that Hitler killed 6 million Jews. They call anyone who disputes the 6 million figure a "Holocaust denier". Thus, they would call the Jesuits who taught me Holocaust deniers because the Jesuits taught that Hitler killed 4 million Jews, not 6 million.

The people who are called Holocaust deniers by these people are not denying the existence of the concentration camps or that Hitler killed millions of Jews. They question the accuracy of the number claimed.

It surprised me to learn that there is no list of Holocaust victims. There is no list of six million Jewish names. From what I gather, Adolph Eichmann once boasted over a liquid lunch that he had arranged for six million to be sent to the concentration camps, and the Holocaust professionals have taken that tipsy boast and treated it as an unassailable truth. They smear anyone who wants to examine the evidence.

From what I have read in Culture Wars Magazine, it is the behavior of the Holocaust professionals that the editor objects to. He believes that the evidence should be examined and the truth determined. And he rejects the idea that anyone who wishes to examine the evidence should be smeared as an "anti-Semite" or a "Holocaust denier".

(By the way, I read a Los Angeles Times obituary last year of a Jewish scholar who had devoted his life to the study of the Holocaust, and he claimed that the correct figure was 5 million Jews. It is simply untrue to assert that the 6 million Jews figure is unassailable.)

Now whether Culture Wars Magazine is a rag or not - well, I don't have a dog in that fight. Take it up with them, not with me. But if the newspapers and magazines that you support never fairly present the Palestinians' side of the story, maybe you should ask yourself, Why not?

(By the way, Bilbo, I used the term "unAmerican" because Culture Wars Magazine is an American publication, and should therefore be subject to American laws and the American way of life. We don't suppress magazines here, we just ignore them. You, living in the UK, are welcome to be as unAmerican as you like while you are over there!)

Now Mobile Mason, I wish you well on your stay in Israel. I imagine that even after sixty years this is an exciting time to move to Israel and help establish the Jewish homeland.

I don't imagine that you will find white slavery in your law books. I don't imagine that you will find that the Russian mafia, which is Jewish, keeps Ukrainian women captive in Israel for sexual purposes. Come to think of it, I doubt that you will see in the newspapers that the Israeli government has granted the leaders of the Russian mafia Israeli passports. This is the sort of dirt about the Israeli government that I think should be exposed to the American people.

Now the Russian mafia (with their exploitation of Ukrainian women) are criminals, thugs. I don't blame the Jewish people for the fact that there are Jewish thugs, just like I don't blame the Italian-Americans for the fact that there are Italian-American thugs in Greater New York.

But I blame the governments which allow criminal activity to go on. And I blame the press which covers it up.

So as I see it, either I am a dupe for giving credence to Culture Wars Magazine, or grandma and Bilbo are dupes for giving credence to the press which behaves as if the leaders of the Israeli government are angels. Which of us is the dupe is not something that can be determined here at MR.

I therefore suggest that we return to intent of the original post. Mobile Mason, I stick by my suggestion that you write about all the things that you find that might surprise the typical American - the good, the bad and the ugly.

Finally, I note that my condemnation of the Israeli government resulted not in the defense of the Israeli government, but rather resulted in personal attacks upon me. This is the sort of behavior that is engaged in by the Holocaust professionals, habitually calling (smearing) anyone in their way anti-Semites and Holocaust deniers. I will not respond to further personal attacks upon me, and I will leave it up to the members here to make up their own minds regarding who here bears hatred for another.

[Mobile Mason]

That scholar that you mentioned, I assume you're talking about Raul Hilberg. His figure includes "over 800,000" who died from "Ghettoization and general privation;" 1,400,000 who were killed in "Open-air shootings;" and "up to 2,900,000" who perished in camps. Hilberg estimates the death toll in Poland at "up to 3,000,000." Hilberg's numbers are generally considered to be a conservative estimate, as they generally include only those deaths for which some records are available, avoiding statistical adjustment. British historian Martin Gilbert used a similar approach in his Atlas of the Holocaust, but arrived at a number of 5.75 million Jewish victims, since he estimated higher numbers of Jews killed in Russia and other locations.

At this point, we're not nearly taking in account the fact that he also killed many socialists, communists, homosexual men, those with physical disabilities, political prisoners, Romani and Sinti, Freemasons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Serbs, Poles, Soviets, and American POWs. The real number is probably topping somewhere in the 7-8 million people range; accounting for people for whom no records were kept.

If you're so incredulous to the fact that what you're saying, that the Israeli government allows the legal practice of slavery, is downright false, then you seriously need to check your facts. I also have to ask, do you watch the news? The most popular of news networks in the United States are anti-Israel and biased. To say that the media supports Israel gives credit to the fact that you need to expand your media sources.

Originally Posted by GA Russell

Finally, I note that my condemnation of the Israeli government resulted not in the defense of the Israeli government, but rather resulted in personal attacks upon me. This is the sort of behavior that is engaged in by the Holocaust professionals, habitually calling (smearing) anyone in their way anti-Semites and Holocaust deniers. I will not respond to further personal attacks upon me, and I will leave it up to the members here to make up their own minds regarding who here bears hatred for another.

Might I add that it does tend to offend people when people give precedence to fantasy. Or would prefer us to agree with you completely? Disregarding fact over pure fiction, which is the greatest sin of them all?

---
As for the original topic, I've decided to write about how well the Israelis have it. I think many people in America (and possibly many in Europe) think that Israel is simply one large warzone.

[Katti's Cat]

Sorry GA. until your latest post I was giving you the benefit of the doubt, but that last one was too much and went too far. I find it offensive and provocative on a subject that is simply not open for discussion.

Not only Jews and Polish Catholics but also socialist, communists, homosexual, Roma & Sinti, Jesuits were killed in concentration camps.

And no, there is no complete list of all victims, as the Germans in their efficency managed to destroy quite a few of the list they so laborious created at check in point.

And at the end - does it really matter (sorry don't want to offend here) if it was 5 or 6 million people? Every single one that got killed is one too many.

Anyone still denying that the Holocaust took place should have a very hard look at themselves.

I believe in the freedom of speech and everyone can believe what they want - as long as they stick to the facts.

[Katti's Cat]

Sorry for the hijack of your thread Mobile Mason - I really hope you share your experience with us. When are you leaving? And when can we expect the first diary entry?

[Mobile Mason]

Originally Posted by Katti's Cat

Sorry for the hijack of your thread Mobile Mason - I really hope you share your experience with us. When are you leaving? And when can we expect the first diary entry?

I kinda helped too, to be honest
But, we really should get back on topic :3

I'll be leaving January of 2011, so still some ways off. I'm graduating early in the winter of 2010 so I can go to Israel without having to worry about my high school grades. I hate online classes, and I know I don't want to have to come back and finish up school.

So journal entry around..middle of 2010 maybe?

[WT Sharpe]

Don't forget your camera!