Going Rogue

[Laz116]

[QUOTE=Harmon;662918]
Oh, all of this is based on accepting your assumption that what is being done to these people is actually torture, legally speaking. I don't think it really is. Not that it isn't rather unpleasant.

QUOTE]

Well I do know that the americans executed japanese for doing waterboarding after the second world war.

But since it's just unpleasant when it is the USA that does it, I think it means that the ones in charge should just have a slap on their fingers.

It would be interesting if you and USA could come to an agreement with yourself about what is torture...

Does committing waterboarding = death penalty or not. Either you were wrong then or you are wrong now.

And if it isn't torture, you wouldn't mind me doing it to you or your chíld wouldn't you?

[Laz116]

Originally Posted by Harmon

I have to laugh. "Reality-based world," and then you rely on television for your example!

LOL maybe before you wrote you'd care to check out the facts of the story.

[Harmon]

Originally Posted by 93terp

You are a keen observer of the obvious. And based on where the Republican party is headed I wouldn't vote for any Republican for all the money in the world.

Oddly enough, I feel the same way.

But since I see you've reached the same conclusion, I'll have to rethink that position.

[93terp]

Originally Posted by desertgrandma

Really? If your opinion mattered, I might care.

Actually, my opinion DOES matter, as does the opinion of 69,456,896 other Americans who voted for Obama. Get over it!

[Harmon]

Originally Posted by Laz116

LOL maybe before you wrote you'd care to check out the facts of the story.

Facts? On television? gimme a break, I'm an old man, my doctor says too much laughter might be dangerous. Please don't tell me how much you rely on Saturday Night Live for your news, I might die.

[Harmon]

Originally Posted by 93terp

Actually, my opinion DOES matter, as does the opinion of 69,456,896 other Americans who voted for Obama. Get over it!

Hmmm. That explains a lot....

[Harmon]

I gotta stop. This is getting too easy.

I'm off this thread. Got some real reading to do...

[93terp]

Originally Posted by Harmon

I have to laugh. "Reality-based world," and then you rely on television for your example!

It wasn't an example, it was a COMPARISON!

[Laz116]

Originally Posted by Harmon

Facts? On television? gimme a break, I'm an old man, my doctor says too much laughter might be dangerous. Please don't tell me how much you rely on Saturday Night Live for your news, I might die.

So I have previously laid out the facts for you:

After WW2 japanese was executed by the us for conducting water boarding.

Now it's not a crime.

Come on with your lawyer skills. Tell me why it's just unpleasent and nothing more now a days. Maybe you can find help in biology. Maybe we have evolved so much so we don't feel it in the same way as back then. Maybe those middle eastern people doesn't feel it the same way that we do.

Let me hear your well read lawyer interpretation of the legislation as well as the history.

[Lady Blue]

Originally Posted by pilotbob

So far it has been a respectful if passionate discussion. I hope it continues to be respectful. It is easy to start attacking the person and not the argument in threads like this.

So, just a friendly reminder from your neighborhood moderator.... lets continue to keep it civil. I don't want to have to pull this thread over.

<Moderator>
BOb

You're right for the most part. The banter has been generally respectful, but I think you've missed some very personal attacks and blatant name calling here recently. In each instance though, it seems that the attackee has refrained from returning the attackers' insults in like kind, thus not feeding THAT particular fire any further.

[Laz116]

Originally Posted by Harmon

I gotta stop. This is getting too easy.

I'm off this thread. Got some real reading to do...

Funny... after all you haven't really contributed with one shred of fact in this thread.


oh... I guess we do uphold the notion that you are a lawyer. But that postulate doesn't really make other outlandish postulates plausible.

[GlennD]

Originally Posted by Laz116

LOL maybe before you wrote you'd care to check out the facts of the story.

Check this out:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torture...ites_in_Europe

It appears the CIA has been transferring prisoners to sites where torture could be performed. That includes capturing suspects in Europe.

Shockingly, this appears to have been done with the knowledge of several European secret services:

In a resolution passed on February 14, 2007 MEPs approved by a large majority (382 voting in favour, 256 against and 74 abstaining) their committee's final report, which criticised the rendition programme and concluded that many European countries tolerated illegal CIA activities including secret flights over their territories. The countries named were: Austria, Belgium, Cyprus, Denmark, Germany, Greece, Ireland, Italy, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Spain, Sweden and the United Kingdom.

Maybe I'm a cynic, but I'm pretty sure torture is far more widely used than any government official will ever admit to. Many blind eyes are turned....unless someone is foolish enough to get caught. What's the old saw about when you point a finger at someone else, there are several fingers pointing back at you? (Not suggesting personal fingers here, I'm not accusing anyone here of being involved in torturing, obviously. I'm speaking of point fingers at the US when apparently many nations are involved in supporting the practice.)

[Harmon]

Rats, I guess I have to deal with this one, then I'm gone, I promise!

QUOTE]
Well I do know that the americans executed japanese for doing waterboarding after the second world war.
[/QUOTE]

That's true. It's a good idea not to lose the war.

[Harmon]

Originally Posted by Laz116

So I have previously laid out the facts for you:

After WW2 japanese was executed by the us for conducting water boarding.

Now it's not a crime.

Sigh. It's a sticky thread. And I really AM trying to leave.

But okay, the answer is really pretty easy.

The Japanese who were executed then probably shouldn't have been executed, at least if the only charge against them was waterboarding.

It seems to me that they were not really executed for waterboarding. They were executed for (a) being on the losing side and (b) because the Japanese actually engaged in horrendous war crimes, things that make waterboarding look innocuous.

Like I said, don't lose the war.

And now I'm not reading anything else in this thread. [click, click, there's no place like home, there's no place like home]

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by desertgrandma

Polls can be tweaked to show whatever results are wanted. They are meaningless.

When you can show me a poll that includes every citizen of the US, I'll believe it.

As for the "torture", we aren't dealing with a section of humanity that plays fair........after 9-11 not one terrorist attack occurred on US soil........until Fort Hood.

If any of that torture was responsible for the safety of this country, I say go for it.

I could give a crap for the treatment of people who think beheading innocents on camera and putting it on the web is the right thing to do.

Well now..... I agree polls are polls, and they say "statistics, damn statistics, and lies" but generally polls (other than our voting) is about all we can go on and I think the voting in the last election made some clear statements on the past 8 years.

Torture, you support torture? That is totally unAmerican as far as I'm concerned. I don't give a rat's a$$ what any country or other group or individual does. We, the United States of America must be ethical and moral and stand as a guiding light for all other countries, groups, individuals. Only by that standard will we and should we be judged. This attitude is exactly the one that is destroying our country - the lack of ethics. It is behind Bernie Madoff, the collapse of the economy, the entitlement mentality, cheating and lying to "win" at any cost.

I am shocked SHOCKED and disappointed in you DGM.