Going Rogue

[desertgrandma]

Originally Posted by Laz116

Lol needed to save further lives: how many terrorist attacks have you prevented by torturing the people at guantanamo?


And even then: how christian is it to inflict pain on the other in order to preserve one ones self.

Oh wait I can answer that: It's quite contrary to the teachings of christianity.

Ok then let us ask: how constitutional is it to use people ase a means to a goal. Oh sorry: that is against the very autonomy that the founding fathers set out to preserve.

But it really seems like that we are all individuals... but some are more individuals than others... namely those you like.

Apparently all of them. Again, only on US soil.

I don't know what you think you're dealing with here. Tell ya what.
The next time muslims decide to fly a plane into some buildings filled with innocents, we'll send them to you. Perhaps you can show us how to treat them humanely.

As for your second question, my "Christian" sympathy for them ceased when I saw the video of Daniel Pearl being beheaded. Maybe you should watch it. It burns into your brain and stays there forever.

Whatever it takes to stop that insanity I'm for.

Not "christian" enough for you? Don't care.

[desertgrandma]

Originally Posted by Laz116

Wasn't the constitution meant to be an universal principle. Or was it just for the people in the land of honey?

Wasn't it meant to be "how it was supposed to be done". Respect for people and people rights, no more monarchies looming over the citizen.

See, where you do get your phrasing? "Land of honey"?


Its called the Constitution of the United States. Not the world.

[pilotbob]

Originally Posted by desertgrandma

Really? These were war crimes, committed by non Americans.

The constitution does not apply to them.

What about American citizens that were held without being told what the charges where. Without due process. Without access to a lawyer. Without being able to face their accuser. Without being presented with the evidences against them. Without a speedy trial. Basically their habeus corpus rights suspended by presidential decree and or the guise of the "Patriot Act"?

Did you know Bush decreed it was ok to tap your phone with a court order. Did you know Bush decreed it was ok to intercept and monitor your mail without a court order.

And don't give me the "I have nothing to hide" speech. This is the united States of America. I have a right to my privacy. It says so in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.

BOb

[desertgrandma]

Originally Posted by pilotbob

What about American citizens that were held without being told what the charges where. Without due process. Without access to a lawyer. Without being able to face their accuser. With being presented with the evidences against them. With a speedy trial. Basically their habeus corpus rights suspended by presidential decree and or the guise of the "Patriot Act"?

BOb

Can you tell me when and what happened to these people?

[Laz116]

Originally Posted by desertgrandma

Apparently all of them. Again, only on US soil.

I don't know what you think you're dealing with here. Tell ya what.
The next time muslims decide to fly a plane into some buildings filled with innocents, we'll send them to you. Perhaps you can show us how to treat them humanely.

As for your second question, my "Christian" sympathy for them ceased when I saw the video of Daniel Pearl being beheaded. Maybe you should watch it. It burns into your brain and stays there forever.

Whatever it takes to stop that insanity I'm for.

Not "christian" enough for you? Don't care.

Well You can be quite certain that it wasn't the inmates of guantanamo that beheaded Daniel Pearl.

I'm not one for passing collective blame. For an example: I don't hold you responsible for the atrocitiesdone by your citizens in other countries.

What I'm trying to say is simply: Let's respect every one as a person. I'm sure it will pay of in the end. Especially since there is no documentation of torture stopping ANY terrorist attack.

In regards to "then Europe can take it next"... have you ever heard of Carlos, of Rote Armee Fraktion. Their actions was quite earthshattering as well if you read the history books. Terrorism has been a part of Europe for the last 50 years. Suddenly with one extraordinarily big action it becomes a part of USA as well. Really, In light of your history you have been priveleged that it didn't happen sooner.

For me It was Shocking, horrendous etc. I remember sitting glued to my tv and thinking: I hope it is some right wing nut, because else hell breaks loose. But at the same time: in the light of My Lai, In the Light of Pinochet and all the other "pin point" operations USA has been the originator of, it really was a matter of time. I don't condone it. I just list the facts.

[Harmon]

[QUOTE=Laz116;662864]

Prove that every one that has received torture was war criminals.

that's step one. And even there you stumble.

It would be helpful if you would get your facts straight. The people who were tortured were not tortured because they were war criminals. They were tortured so that we could get the information we need to stop their comrades from killing us. And fortunately, it's been working, so far.

Can we reverse it? Are USA not war criminals when CIA instigates a revolt against an democratically elected government in South America?

Care to identify the government involved? It's kind of hard to figure out what you are talking about when you don't bother to use actual facts.

And I'd be interested in how you know what the CIA is up to. I've actually met a couple of people in the CIA and they would barely tell me their first names. And I assumed they were lying. Are you sure they weren't lying to you?

Should not americans be tortured, be brought to justice (something you fail to do to your enemies due to lack of evidence)?

Actually, we do bring our enemies to justice. We kill them.

Unless they surrender. Then we lock them up until their comrades stop trying to kill us. Then we let them go

Unless they actually ARE war criminals. Then we hang them.

Of course, the president is going to try a different method. He's going to bring them to trial. I think he might be trying to bore them to death. Pretty deadly stuff, sitting around a court room all day listening to the lawyers argue. It's not at all like you see on television.

There is a whole ladder in front of you, and you cannot even reach step one.

Thanks for the ladder. We can use it to help us hang the war criminals.

[Laz116]

Originally Posted by desertgrandma

See, where you do get your phrasing? "Land of honey"?


Its called the Constitution of the United States. Not the world.

Land of honey was a biblical joke. Glad you caught it.


But actually I truly believe that USA has the strength and the potential to be the greatest place on earth (to be the biblical land of honey, which some of your countries actions seem to indicate that you think you already are). But it really does demand for a higher respect for the individual (whether he is american or not).

I really don't understand why you or me should be anything more worth than the average iraqi or afghan. But you seem willing to accept that your government without any legislation to back it up submits the average afghan or iraqi to torture. Would you accept those premises for yourself?

[desertgrandma]

Originally Posted by Laz116

Well You can be quite certain that it wasn't the inmates of guantanamo that beheaded Daniel Pearl. True. But it was the same crazy thinking extremist pals.

I'm not one for passing collective blame. For an example: I don't hold you responsible for the atrocitiesdone by your citizens in other countries. Collective blame? I blame those responsible. The fact that they are all muslim extremeists doesn't ring a bell?

What I'm trying to say is simply: Let's respect every one as a person. I'm sure it will pay of in the end. Especially since there is no documentation of torture stopping ANY terrorist attack. Sure there is!!! The simple fact that there has been no terrorist attack is proof enough for me.

In regards to "then Europe can take it next"... have you ever heard of Carlos, of Rote Armee Fraktion. Their actions was quite earthshattering as well if you read the history books. Terrorism has been a part of Europe for the last 50 years. Suddenly with one extraordinarily big action it becomes a part of USA as well. Really, In light of your history you have been priveleged that it didn't happen sooner.

For me It was Shocking, horrendous etc. I remember sitting glued to my tv and thinking: I hope it is some right wing nut, because else hell breaks loose. But at the same time: in the light of My Lai, In the Light of Pinochet and all the other "pin point" operations USA has been the originator of, it really was a matter of time. I don't condone it. I just list the facts.

Oh, thats priceless. You hoped it was a right wing nut, now you're outraged because we are fighting back.

Tell us exactly what you would have us do. Really. I'd like to know.

[Lady Blue]

This thread certainly has Gone Rogue!

[desertgrandma]

Originally Posted by Laz116

But actually I truly believe that USA has the strength and the potential to be the greatest place on earth (to be the biblical land of honey, which some of your countries actions seem to indicate that you think you already are). But it really does demand for a higher respect for the individual (whether he is american or not).

I really don't understand why you or me should be anything more worth than the average iraqi or afghan. But you seem willing to accept that your government without any legislation to back it up submits the average afghan or iraqi to torture. Would you accept those premises for yourself?

Pretty words. Peace on earth, goodwill towards men.

Well, that only works when everyone feels that way.

When there are those out there who would love to see you and your way of life wiped off the face of the earth, for no other reason than because you don't follow their religion, its kinda hard to play nice.

[desertgrandma]

Originally Posted by Lady Blue

This thread certainly has Gone Rogue!

Hey! We got it off health care!

[Harmon]

Did you know Bush decreed it was ok to tap your phone with a court order. Did you know Bush decreed it was ok to intercept and monitor your mail without a court order.

Bush made no such "decrees." He acted based on the Department of Justice's interpretation of the laws passed by Congress. That's within the scope of both the president's duty and the president's power.

There's a rather lengthy and detailed article on the matter at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSA_war...ce_controversy for anyone with the desire to beat their heads against the wall about all this.

Interestingly enough, the Obama administration seems to agree with Bush's lawyers:

"On January 23, 2009, the administration of President Barack Obama adopted the same position as his predecessor when it urged U.S. District Judge Vaughn Walker to set aside a ruling in Al-Haramain Islamic Foundation et al. v. Obama, et al.[38] The Obama administration also sided with the former administration in its legal defense of July, 2008 legislation that immunized the nation's telecommunications companies from lawsuits accusing them of complicity in the eavesdropping program, according to testimony by Attorney General Eric Holder.[39]"

Of course, I understand that by "decree" you mean "something Bob doesn't agree with." You're on your own with that.

[Laz116]

[QUOTE=Harmon;662892][QUOTE=Laz116;662864]

It would be helpful if you would get your facts straight. The people who were tortured were not tortured because they were war criminals. They were tortured so that we could get the information we need to stop their comrades from killing us. And fortunately, it's been working, so far.

Name one case where it has stopped a imminent terrorist attack. Your reasoning is faulty: We torture... nothing happens... ergo torture works.

Care to identify the government involved? It's kind of hard to figure out what you are talking about when you don't bother to use actual facts.

And I'd be interested in how you know what the CIA is up to. I've actually met a couple of people in the CIA and they would barely tell me their first names. And I assumed they were lying. Are you sure they weren't lying to you?

Ok let's talk about pinochet. That is so well documented that you even have a musical about it. Don't cry for me argentina. Are you really seriously that ignorant.

Ok lets talk of My Lai. What footage of it does you dispute. The little child stripped of her clothing, still burning due to the chemicals?

There are not only dozens, but hundreds of witnesses saying it was common for amaricans to rape at will, to shoot at will. The nature of war.

If you want examples of other things the US government has had a hand in, it'll probably take a couple of hours. But we can start with the attempt to remove Chavez from power.

Actually, we do bring our enemies to justice. We kill them.

You just don't really make sure they are your enemies first, now do you. (and I am actually for the coalition in Afghanistan, and the Danish troops are deployed at one of the worst places in Helmand)

Unless they surrender. Then we lock them up until their comrades stop trying to kill us. Then we let them go

That is just ridiculous if your talking about afghanistan. Most of the lockups in guantanamo was captured by afghans. You haven't got a clue of whether they are terrorists or not.

Unless they actually ARE war criminals. Then we hang them.

Oh you really don't get the geneva convention do you.

Of course, the president is going to try a different method. He's going to bring them to trial. I think he might be trying to bore them to death. Pretty deadly stuff, sitting around a court room all day listening to the lawyers argue. It's not at all like you see on television.

You know what: with your ignorance, now I get the idea of why you are going to bury yourself in a slum of debt and inflation these next years. You are just to goddamn dumb to raise yourself above those 33% you have to pay of everyge dime just to pay the rate.

[Lady Blue]

Originally Posted by desertgrandma

Hey! We got it off health care!

Excellent point!

[93terp]

Originally Posted by Good Old Neon

The conservative, Andrew Sullivan's early review of Going Rogue:

Great review & spot on! Sullivan is about the only conservative I can stomach; he does not spew the RNC/Limbaugh/Beck/Hannity/Palin/Bachmann screeds, AKA talking points. He is true to core conservative principles and I'm sure his party's views on gays & lesbians causes him constant pain & heartbreak, especially when you consider that the majority of today's Republicans are bigots/racists/xenophobes.