Going Rogue

[kazbates]

As to the original topic:

I must say that I'm surprised by the vitriol of the left leaning participants in this thread. I think Joe Biden is a bit of a twit and has made more trouble for President Obama than he has helped him. Having said that, I wouldn't take to posting ridiculing and negative comments if he were to publish a new book. I would just ignore it.

When I hear people make all these negative comments, I can't help but think, "me thinks the lady doth protest too much."

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by kazbates

The idea of the original system of government that was established by the founding fathers, where there were strong state governments and an overseeing federal government that kept the states together ...


People haven't forgotten. Our politicians have forgotten.

Great post Kaz. I do however think the majority of the people have forgotten, they don't participate but have entitlement mindsets.

The impression I get from everything I see is pretty much to opposite of what JFK said, "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country"

[Ea]

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

Let me put it in a different scale.
<snip>

I can understand it's not the same scale, and I hope you understand I'm not proposing the same system for USA. That would be ludicrous. It's the feeling of fear of the idea of governmental influence as it has been expressed here (among other places) that leaves me - to be honest - bewildered. And if the reason for that fear, as it was explained, is the British government as it looked like in the late 18th century, then I'm even more

[Madam Broshkina]

Originally Posted by Good Old Neon

She had every opportunity to speak for herself, and when she did, she made it blindingly obvious that she didn’t have a clue regarding foreign policy, among a long list of other topics. She and she alone is responsible for the ignorant, nonsensical garbage that spewed and continues to spew forth every time she opens her mouth. The media and/or SNL is not responsible for her downfall – she is – her excuses as to why she came across as an ignorant know nothing are her own, she owns them.

For the record - direct quotes:

"As Putin rears his head and comes into the air space of the United States of America, where– where do they go? It's Alaska. It's just right over the border." --Sarah Palin, explaining why Alaska's proximity to Russia gives her foreign policy experience, interview with CBS's Katie Couric, Sept. 24, 2008

"They're our next door neighbors and you can actually see Russia from land here in Alaska, from an island in Alaska." Sarah Palin On her foreign policy insights into Russia, ABC News interview, September 11, 2008.

I can see the Atlantic Ocean from my back deck, but believe it or not, that doesn't make me a marine biologist.

Further, the mess we now find ourselves in is largely a result of 8 years of mismanagement by the Bush Administration – fact. I find it amusing that the same folks who voted for Bush twice, are the same folks blaming Obama for the state of this country, when, in fact, they are responsible for enabling one of if not the worst presidents in this country’s history – fact. If you voted for him once, if not twice, the next time you find yourself in front of a mirror, take a moment to congratulate yourself on what you’ve helped to accomplish, financial ruin, two unwinnable wars, the institution of torture, the pillaging of the constitution, etc.

As for Harmon, the self described “authority”, well, he’s as blind to reality as you are, apparently. To quote Orwell - To see what is in front of one's nose needs a constant struggle." For Palin supporters and apologizers, that struggle is being lost on a daily, moment by moment basis.

I begrudgingly voted for Obama, but I’m not a democrat. I have respect for the traditional, Barry Goldwater brand of conservatism – however, the movement has been hijacked by christianists such as Palin and her ilk, and as a result, is no longer recognizable.

The following essay by Matt Taibbi does a great job of summing up Palin and her supporters, with the gloves off.

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics.../mad_dog_palin

An excerpt:

And none of it matters, so long as you remember a few months before Election Day to offer them a two-bit caricature culled from some cutting-room-floor episode of Roseanne as part of your presidential ticket. And if she's a good enough likeness of a loudmouthed Middle American archetype, as Sarah Palin is, John Q. Public will drop his giant-size bag of Doritos in gratitude, wipe the Sizzlin' Picante dust from his lips and rush to the booth to vote for her. Not because it makes sense, or because it has a chance of improving his life or anyone else's, but simply because it appeals to the low-humming narcissism that substitutes for his personality, because the image on TV reminds him of the mean, brainless slob he sees in the mirror every morning.

Sarah Palin is a symbol of everything that is wrong with the modern United States. As a representative of our political system, she's a new low in reptilian villainy, the ultimate cynical masterwork of puppeteers like Karl Rove. But more than that, she is a horrifying symbol of how little we ask for in return for the total surrender of our political power. Not only is Sarah Palin a fraud, she's the tawdriest, most half-assed fraud imaginable, 20 floors below the lowest common denominator, a character too dumb even for daytime TV — and this country is going to eat her up, cheering her every step of the way. All because most Americans no longer have the energy to do anything but lie back and allow ourselves to be jacked off by the calculating thieves who run this grasping consumer paradise we call a nation.

When quoting the interview with Katie Couric you stated that Sarah Palin was responding to a question concerning her foreign policy experience. The quote which you sited came from an differnent question that was asked. Plus you did not include the whole quote just so you could portray SP in a negative light.

Couric: Have you ever been involved in any negotiations, for example, with the Russians?
Palin:

We have trade missions back and forth, we do. It’s very important when you consider even national security issues with Russia. As Putin rears his head and comes into the air space of the United States of America, where do they go? It’s Alaska. It’s just right over the border. It is from Alaska that we send those out to make sure that an eye is being kept on this very powerful nation, Russia, because they are right there, they are right next to our state.

Katie Couric did ask the question why does the closeness of Russia to Alaska enhances her foreign policy credentials but she was asked another question before SP could finish her answer.

Couric: Well, explain to me why that enhances your foreign-policy credentials.
Palin:

Well, it certainly does, because our, our next-door neighbors are foreign countries, there in the state that I am the executive of. And there…

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/...in;contentBody

[Ea]

Originally Posted by kennyc

And that is the "proper" view EA. Unfortunately in the U.S.A. the people seem to have forgotten that government exists only at the behest of the people and should be subservient to that ideal. They've also seemed to have forgotten that they must participate in the process. In the mean time government has become the driver of the poor huddled unaware masses who simply follow the lead of politicians who are directed mostly by corporations lobbying and political action committees and the media and advertising that is directed by those same corporations. I'm coming to believe that the legalization of the corporation as an "individual" entity is the worst thing that ever happened in the U.S. Legal system

It truly is a bad situation despite the good that exists in the country and services provided by the government. As with most things it is good and bad at the same time.

This is certainly the way it looks like from the outside. I have recently been wondering why consumer organisations in USA seems so little successful and seem to have so little popular support. I have been wondering why, since it's typically issues that affects a lot of people, but this would go some way to explain it - apart from the diversity and heterogenity of the USA society.

BTW, sounds like you have seen the documentary "The Corporation"

PS, Kenny: It's "Ea" not "EA" - it's a first name

[93terp]

Originally Posted by kennyc

I'm coming to believe that the legalization of the corporation as an "individual" entity is the worst thing that ever happened in the U.S. Legal system

kennyc, you have hit the nail squarely on the head, and bottom line, this is where the problem begins. Until this legal standing is changed, I don't think we'll ever rid ourselves of the stranglehold that corporations have over the government & the legislative process.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by Ea

..
BTW, sounds like you have seen the documentary "The Corporation"

PS, Kenny: It's "Ea" not "EA" - it's a first name

Apologies. (caps lock issue ) Not a pseudo-name then.

Yes I have seen that documentary, but it was well after my thoughts on the evils of the corporate world. It served more to confirm and enhance them.

[93terp]

Originally Posted by rhadin

Conservatives seem to speak with forked tongue when it comes to government instrusion into our lives.

And the best example of that, in my opinion, was the Terry Schiavo debacle a few years back. Conservatives were absolutely tripping over themselves to rush right into the middle of that medical decision, telling Terry's husband that he had no right to make end of life decisions for his wife, that only the likes of Tom Delay, George W. Bush and Bill Frist were qualified to make that decision (because they - conservatives - represent "the party of life". Give me a break!). As I recall, W flew back from Crawdad in the middle of the night to sign "emergency legislation" regarding the situation. Hyprocrisy in it's most absurd form.

[Good Old Neon]

Originally Posted by Madam Broshkina

When quoting the interview with Katie Couric you stated that Sarah Palin was responding to a question concerning her foreign policy experience. The quote which you sited came from an differnent question that was asked. Plus you did not include the whole quote just so you could portray SP in a negative light.


Katie Couric did ask the question why does the closeness of Russia to Alaska enhances her foreign policy credentials but she was asked another question before SP could finish her answer.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/...in;contentBody

I don't have to go out of my way to make her look bad, she's a pro at that. As for your defense, well, what can I say, the quotes speak for themselves, regardless of the context.

[Good Old Neon]

Originally Posted by 93terp

And the best example of that, in my opinion, was the Terry Schiavo debacle a few years back. Conservatives were absolutely tripping over themselves to rush right into the middle of that medical decision, telling Terry's husband that he had no right to make end of life decisions for his wife, that only the likes of Tom Delay, George W. Bush and Bill Frist were qualified to make that decision (because they - conservatives - represent "the party of life". Give me a break!). As I recall, W flew back from Crawdad in the middle of the night to sign "emergency legislation" regarding the situation. Hyprocrisy in it's most absurd form.

Well said.

[kennyc]

Speaking of inalienable rights. What about Broadband?

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2356014,00.asp

[desertgrandma]

Originally Posted by 93terp

Your assertion that I am a "he" is not only insulting, but completely wrong.

The next time the "government" comes to your rescue in the form of the fire department or the police department or the FAA or your Medicare policy or your Social Security, just to name a few, I'll assume that you will tell them that government is the problem & not the solution & refuse their services in your time of need. I also assume that, since you believe gov't is the problem & not the solution, you send back your monthly Social Security check (if you are of a qualifying age to receive that gov't provided help) and that you are not using Medicare coverage of any kind (again, assuming that you are of a qualifying age to receive that gov't provided help).

Since you believe that gov't is the problem & not the solution, I'll assume then that you aren't so much concerned with constitutional guarentees of life, liberty & the pursuit of happiness or the freedoms that we Americans hold so dear? After all, who do you think guarentees and provides for the protections of those freedoms and liberties? Surely not the big, bad evil gov't!

Since you believe that gov't is the problem & not the solution, I'll assume then that you wouldn't mind the complete dismantling of the US armed forces. After all, what entity is responsible for ensuring that there is a military force to protect our constitution & what it provides to all citizens and defend our liberties & freedoms? Surely not the big, bad evil gov't!

Finally, I'm also assuming that since you believe gov't is the problem & not the solution that you do not exercise your constitutional right to vote for your elected gov't representation. After all, we have (or at least the original plan was to have) a gov't "of, by & for the people". So does that mean you ultimately believe that the people are the problem? If so, sounds like you would prefer to live somewhere else, perhaps in a country like China, which is a Communist dictatorship? Hmmm.....

Aw jeez.......I really have to stop going to bed early and sleeping in of a morning. Look what I've missed .

A civil "excuse me I'm female" would have sufficed.
Why would it be insulting to be thought of as a man when you give no hint in your avatar as to your gender?

As for the fire, police, military, etc....I pay for those services thru my taxes. Do you really believe thats what I was referring to taking into consideration the trend of this thread?

So far, I"m not eligible for SS checks or medicare. But, when I am, I"ve paid for those too, thru the taxes while working.

Do you really think the government, as it stands, can do a better job of health care than what is there right now?

Never mind the problems that exist. Will the government improve things, or make them worse?

How are those billions of dollars our esteemed leaders cheerfully pass out to the banks and dealerships doing? Well, they're happy, anyway.

Again......where is the money coming from to pay for all these socially correct programs?

As for your last paragraph......of course I vote. Thats what you do when you agree/disagree with your government.

And yes. I believe we have a large percentage of people who believe the government should take care of them, from health insurance, to welfare, to bailing them out of houses they never should have bought in the first place, because they knew they couldn't afford them.

I'm just not one of them.

[kazbates]

Originally Posted by 93terp

And the best example of that, in my opinion, was the Terry Schiavo debacle a few years back. Conservatives were absolutely tripping over themselves to rush right into the middle of that medical decision, telling Terry's husband that he had no right to make end of life decisions for his wife, that only the likes of Tom Delay, George W. Bush and Bill Frist were qualified to make that decision (because they - conservatives - represent "the party of life". Give me a break!). As I recall, W flew back from Crawdad in the middle of the night to sign "emergency legislation" regarding the situation. Hyprocrisy in it's most absurd form.

You can choose extreme issues (and hypocrisy) on either side of the aisle. Conservatives don't have the market cornered on gaffs. Some off the laws that give incredible rights to criminals within the justice system are the result of Liberal legislation. Anyone that repeatedly abuses children should have NO rights, not even humanitarian ones.

While I agree that the Terry Schiavo case was awful and that the politicians should have stayed out of it, it was the court system that mucked it up. The bottom line was that her parents wanted to keep her alive and her husband wanted to let her die with dignity. Both sides had strong arguments for their own viewpoints and it was easy to sympathise with them both.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by desertgrandma

....

How are those billions of dollars our esteemed leaders cheerfully pass out to the banks and dealerships doing? Well, they're happy, anyway.

....
And yes. I believe we have a large percentage of people who believe the government should take care of them, from health insurance, to welfare, to bailing them out of houses they never should have bought in the first place, because they knew they couldn't afford them.

I'm just not one of them.

At least we agree on those things so maybe I won't get The Stick!

[kazbates]

Originally Posted by desertgrandma

Aw jeez.......I really have to stop going to bed early and sleeping in of a morning. Look what I've missed .

A civil "excuse me I'm female" would have sufficed.
Why would it be insulting to be thought of as a man when you give no hint in your avatar as to your gender?

As for the fire, police, military, etc....I pay for those services thru my taxes. Do you really believe thats what I was referring to taking into consideration the trend of this thread?

So far, I"m not eligigle for SS checks or medicare. But, when I am, I"ve paid for those too, thru the taxes while working.

Do you really think the government, as it stands, can do a better job of health care than what is there right now?

Never mind the problems that exist. Will the government improve things, or make them worse?

How are those billions of dollars our esteemed leaders cheerfully pass out to the banks and dealerships doing? Well, they're happy, anyway.

Again......where is the money coming from to pay for all these socially correct programs?

As for your last paragraph......of course I vote. Thats what you do when you agree/disagree with your government.

And yes. I believe we have a large percentage of people who believe the government should take care of them, from health insurance, to welfare, to bailing them out of houses they never should have bought in the first place, because they knew they couldn't afford them.

I'm just not one of them.

That's it in a nutshell. The difference between people who think they should be "taken care of" and those who take care of themselves. That's really at the core of the healthcare debate here. I don't want the government to take care of me other than emergency services, education, and military. When my husband was out of work, we relied on my paltry teacher's salary and our savings. We paid for our own health insurance (by the way, I do believe that ALL insurance is a scam and that the insurance industry is what really has a strangle hold on this country) and took care of our own needs. We cut out everything that wasn't essential. That's what responsible people do.