Going Rogue

[desertgrandma]

Originally Posted by Daithi

Shouldn't every human being be provided with these neccessities, and shouldn't the rich pay for it?

And just where would the incentive be to get rich?

[Ea]

Originally Posted by desertgrandma

Well said.

You are aware that I live in a country with a social system that is somewhat more extensive than yours, a system I endorse, and a government that I (mostly) happily pays my 43% tax to?

[Harmon]

Originally Posted by Crowl

That's weird, she seemed to be getting ridiculed for being unsuited to be vice president which seemed fair given how little trust her own party had for her to speak publically, she has been ridiculed for preaching about the effectiveness of abstinence-only birth control while her daughter proceeded to disprove her, she has been ridiculed for quitting her job as governor halfway through to spend her time on facebook while somebody else wrote a book for her, none of that seems undeserved or based on fear to me.

Well, to borrow a phrase scientists use, that's not even wrong.

1. it was not her party that didn't "trust" her, it was McCain's handlers, and they didn't have a clue about how to use her. Of course, there were a lot clues McCain's handlers didn't have.
2. abstinence works every time. It's being a teenager that's the problem.
3. did you bother to actually listen to her speech?
4. Palin understands about facebook. Apparently, you don't.
5. um...it's called "ghostwriting." Y'know, like "Profiles in Courage"? (hey, an actual "book" reference!)

Whom the left fears, it ridicules. Whom the right fears, it scorns.

[desertgrandma]

Originally Posted by Ea

You are aware that I live in a country with a social system that is somewhat more extensive than yours, a system I endorse, and a government that I (mostly) happily pays my 43% tax to?

Yes. Even tho I live in such a backwards country that raised me to be responsible for my own living, health care and housing...........

I was able to read under your avatar.

[Ea]

Originally Posted by Daithi

Shouldn't every human being be provided with these neccessities, and shouldn't the rich pay for it?

Everyone pays taxes - not only the rich, the poor does as well. Everyone who has an income pays tax.

Edit: You ask where to draw the line... Well, in my country we have done so, and it seem the same in other countries. The line in my country is quite different from yours. I feel the line in my country is more moral and civilised than yours, but I assume you feel the same about the line in your country. It must be due to the way we were brought up.

[Ea]

Originally Posted by desertgrandma

Yes. Even tho I live in such a backwards country that raised me to be responsible for my own living, health care and housing...........

I was able to read under your avatar.

'Is fine. Given your views in general I just wondered

[Crowl]

Originally Posted by Harmon

Whom the left fears, it ridicules. Whom the right fears, it scorns.

Whom the right fears will have everything they do twisted by fox news would seem more accurate these days.

[desertgrandma]

Originally Posted by Ea

'Is fine. Given our views in general I just wondered

Its a difference in ideology, I think. What you said makes perfect sense.

How long has your system been in place?

Here, lifetimes of one way of thinking, IE, healthcare, is trying to be changed in just a few months.

There is no transparency. Our representatives are not reading the bill, and admitting to that fact.

No one knows the cost. No one know how it will be paid for, except for increasing taxes of the wealthy, and good luck with that.

No one knows exactly how it will work. The details change almost daily.

No wonder there is such divided discussions.

[Madam Broshkina]

Originally Posted by Ea

Everyone pays taxes - not only the rich, the poor does as well. Everyone who has an income pays tax.

Edit: You ask where to draw the line... Well, in my country we have done so, and it seem the same in other countries. The line in my country is quite different from yours. I feel the line in my country is more moral and civilised than yours, but I assume you feel the same about the line in your country. It must be due to the way we were brought up.

http://money.cnn.com/2009/04/15/pf/t...east/index.htm

Many pay no income tax or very little

A Tax Foundation survey found 56% of Americans think the amount of federal income tax they pay is too high. Those most likely to feel that way, according to the survey, include those making between $35,000 and $50,000.

But once the various tax breaks to which they're entitled are counted, the burdens of low- and middle-income tax filers as a group has been fairly low.

The Tax Policy Center estimates that for 2009, 43% of tax units (most of which are lower income households that may or may not file a return) will have no income tax liability or will have a negative income tax liability, meaning the government will actually pay them.

When measuring the tax burdens from income tax and payroll tax combined, the Tax Policy Center estimates nearly 12% of tax units will have zero or negative liability.

They may pay sales taxes or other local taxes though. I myself pay about 38 Percent of my income in federal taxes. Which compared to some European countries might seem pretty good.

[Ea]

Originally Posted by desertgrandma

How long has your system been in place?

Good question.

Not being a scholar of history - just my impression. The ideas and philosophy behind the welfare state has roots in the humanism of the mid 19th century, in the conditions of the large, poor working classes (many of whom at that time emigrated). Socialism has its roots here as well.

As for Denmark, I belive this guy, N.F.S. Grundtvig, pastor, political philospher, and hymn composer has had a much greater influence on my way of life than Marx.

In the early 20th century, the poorer classes gained knowledge and the political left gained power. After the war, there were focus on re-building a state and an economy that would support more people, thus effectively meshing the classes into a great middle class. There are still very rich people and very poor people, but it's levelled out some. After all, you can't eat money, how much do you need for a comfortable life.

During the criris of the seventies and early eighties we had a right-wing government cutting down and cleaning up the excesses of the sixties. Which was good. Now, after another left-wing government, and then a right-wing (the current) things work quite well. Denmark is a rich as we have ever been. So many more people have a life-style that would not have been imagined 100 years ago.

With the words from a hymn by N.F.S. Grundtvig: 'Then we in richness have made it well - when few has too much, and fewer too little'.

[pilotbob]

Originally Posted by Ea

You seem to abhor governmental influence and do not trust a government. I don't understand at all.... Do you not vote for a government to act as a government - to rule the affairs of your country? It all sounds quite anarchist to me. You seem to equate government with oppression.

YES! You've got it. The US government has exploded to become an oppressive bureaucracy that does more harm than good with alot of over regulation. It is also involved in ALOT of places that the consitution strictly enumerates are state government affairs.

Now, I'm not saying I want ararchy but I am saying I want the US government to reflect what the original drafters of the constitution intended. As a matter of fact in 1894 the Supreme Court ruled the income tax unconstitutional.

It isn't government I don't trust... it is the members of government that this it is a job, a way to gain power and such. Career senators and congresspeople is what scares me. We should have term limits and you are not allowed to run again... if I couldn't be a Congressman for more than 4 years... lobbyist would have alot less leverage over me.

BOb

[WT Sharpe]

Originally Posted by Harmon

...I prefer a system that works fairly well for most people to one which will cover less for more people, at a greater expense and inefficiency. ...

Let's talk about the public option, since that's what we're really talking about when we're talking about anything approaching government-run health-care.

1) If like the insurance you have, you can keep it. That's why it's called an option.

2) If you would rather have the government plan, you must pay for it. It's not charity, and it's not free; but it's the best way I can see to make the big boys behave, and in my opinion, health-care reform without a strong public option is no reform at all.

Could it hurt the insurance companies ability to make profits? All I can say is that I'm every bit as worried about that as the insurance companies are about people with pre-existing conditions.

[Ea]

Originally Posted by Madam Broshkina

They may pay sales taxes or other local taxes though. I myself pay about 38 Percent of my income in federal taxes. Which compared to some European countries might seem pretty good.

Only good depending on what you get in return. I feel I get a good return on my taxes.

[Ea]

Originally Posted by pilotbob

YES! You've got it. The US government has exploded to become an oppressive bureaucracy that does more harm than good with alot of over regulation. It is also involved in ALOT of places that the consitution strictly enumerates are state government affairs.

Now, I'm not saying I want ararchy but I am saying I want the US government to reflect what the original drafters of the constitution intended. As a matter of fact in 1894 the Supreme Court ruled the income tax unconstitutional.

It isn't government I don't trust... it is the members of government that this it is a job, a way to gain power and such. Career senators and congresspeople is what scares me. We should have term limits and you are not allowed to run again... if I couldn't be a Congressman for more than 4 years... lobbyist would have alot less leverage over me.

BOb

Erm.... Shouldn't you then try to work for a major reform of the way your government works? As far as I can see, the alternative you seek would end in anarchy.
Personally I wouldn't want to see USA going anarchist - it is a large economy and the influence USA has on the world economy is crucial enough for me to want sensible, intelligent, moderate people to run the country. By way of its size, USA has a great responsibility outwards as well as inwards.

[pilotbob]

Originally Posted by WT Sharpe

1) If like the insurance you have, you can keep it. That's why it's called an option.

My "options" are the plans my employer offers. If a "government" plan comes around that will cost my employer less money then they are going to drop other offerings. So, guess what I can't keep the plan I have. Not that the plan I have is all the awesome in the first place.

Another thought I had was in RI for auto insurance if you were a new driver and you weren't on your parents policy they only way for you to get insurance was in what was called the "risk pool". The risk pool could not turn you down. The rates were somewhat affordable because everyone in the risk pool subsidized everyone else. You could buy insurance from any company but that insurance company had the backing of the risk pools funds.

Isn't that how flood insurance works too? Anyway... I'm not sure I am going with this... but there are models of shared risk that we could emulate rather than building some big bureaucracy.

BOb