This is why Amazon is going to win

[luqmaninbmore]

Originally Posted by brecklundin

right now I think the biggest issue is the "Company Store" trend in ereading devices and book formats. If you are not from the US then here is info on what "Company Store" means (and other names which might be more familiar because every country has had it happen and some still have it happening):

To be fair, thought, there are some trends in the opposite direction, such as Sony's move away from its own proprietary format to ADEPT encrypted EPUB. The latter is still proprietary, of course, but if that format is supported by practically every device except the Kindle, it does repudiate the company store concept. Better yet, there is the movement, still nascent, to drop DRM altogether. OReilly, Smashwords, and Fictionwise multi-format books are, hopefully, bellwethers in this regard.

Luqman

[FlorenceArt]

Originally Posted by Kali Yuga

I don't think people care very much about format though. It's a technical detail that is far less important to consumers than title availability, price and the overall quality of the experience.

Well they shouldn't have to care about it. I didn't, until I found out that I have to choose one, because I cannot read DRMed mobi and epub books on the same reader, thanks to Amazon apparently. Some books are unavailable to me because of this stupid format/DRM issue. I care about that.

[luqmaninbmore]

Originally Posted by Kali Yuga

The iTunes music store currently has about 70% of the online music sales market, which in turn adds up to 25% of the overall market (this is US only btw). The next closest competitor is Amazon with 8% of the digital market. We are dealing with an ongoing process, but at least at the moment Apple is clearly dominant in music sales -- despite using a "minority" format (AAC) and, for much of its history, a proprietary DRM scheme (Fairplay).



If Amazon captures a significant percentage of the ebook sales market -- say, 40% or more -- then I see no reason to doubt that publishers will continue to convert their books to Amazon's format. I can't imagine a publisher will want to stay away from such a huge chunk of customers solely due to the cost of conversion.

Since it's unlikely that Amazon will lose market share simply based on format offerings, I see little reason why everyone else switching to ePub -- especially as long as they have unique DRM wrappers that prevent Sony books being read on the Nook, and vice versa -- will have much of an impact on Amazon.

Sony books will be able to be read on the Nook by the end of the year. Whether the reverse is true will depend on how quickly Sony upgrades its version Adobe Mobile. I do expect that other manufacturers will update in a timely manner, resulting in a substantial number of devices on the market that are store-agnostic.

Luqman

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by Kali Yuga

The iTunes music store currently has about 70% of the online music sales market, which in turn adds up to 25% of the overall market (this is US only btw). ....


If Amazon ....

Since it's unlikely that Amazon will lose market share simply based on format offerings, I see little reason why everyone else switching to ePub -- especially as long as they have unique DRM wrappers that prevent Sony books being read on the Nook, and vice versa -- will have much of an impact on Amazon.

You're off target. You are talking only about on-line sales, that's not the entire digital music market. I never mentioned music at all, that's only part of Apple's business. Let's compare computer market -- which is what I intended by the comment, not some tiny selected segment.

Note that you said "If" -- that really is the key isn't it. Only history will tell, but based on history, it is the common format that will win. One supplier cannot stand alone against the world. And that is why Amazon will come around.

Of course they will lose market share if the same books are offered in a non-proprietary format and/or at a cheaper price.

[WT Sharpe]

Originally Posted by kennyc

I think it's the public that benefits. By having a standard format then ALL devices will support it, ALL publishers with publish in it and the consumer will benefit through selection and price, regardless of supplier, publisher, or device.

Yea, kenny!

Couldn't agree more.

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by kennyc

I think it's the public that benefits. By having a standard format then ALL devices will support it, ALL publishers with publish in it and the consumer will benefit through selection and price, regardless of supplier, publisher, or device.

I agree, but publishers are ignorant, the companies are greedy and the audience is stupid when it comes to all this. That kind of mix makes the whole system a farce. Whatever format the pirates choose is the format that wins, I have no doubt about that (looks like it'll be ePub).

[Terisa de morgan]

Originally Posted by kennyc

I think it's the public that benefits. By having a standard format then ALL devices will support it, ALL publishers with publish in it and the consumer will benefit through selection and price, regardless of supplier, publisher, or device.

New consumers, you mean. Not people who already have their devices (and they got them some time ago). And HW update is a very nice option only if you have money.

[WT Sharpe]

Originally Posted by Terisa de morgan

New consumers, you mean. Not people who already have their devices (and they got them some time ago). And HW update is a very nice option only if you have money.

I have a Kindle 2 (pre-International). Kindle uses a Linux OS. As far as I know, there's no reason (except greed) that Amazon couldn't update the system via normal wireless update to support ePub. There are already 3rd party apps that claim to convert ePub and PDF files to mobi right on the device itself.

[Terisa de morgan]

Originally Posted by WT Sharpe

I have a Kindle 2 (pre-International). Kindle uses a Linux OS. As far as I know, there's no reason (except greed) that Amazon couldn't update the system via normal wireless update to support ePub. There are already 3rd party apps that claim to convert ePub and PDF files to mobi right on the device itself.

I'm talking about people who doesn't have a reader and read at their devices, not any reader.

[Sweetpea]

Originally Posted by FlorenceArt

Maybe not, but they won't SELL it to you unless you can prove you have one of their devices. Or has that changed lately?

Yes, they will sell it if I use Kindle for PC.

Originally Posted by brecklundin

download Kindle Reader for the PC....the software for the IpOd/touch...so Amazon is targeting getting their reader software on other platforms in order to compete. Then you can jailbreak your AWZ books and read them wherever you wish. And I don't see Amazon converting every title to Topaz anytime soon...

I sense Amazon is banking on Win7 on a lot of mobile devices.

I can't remove the DRM on any non-topaz books I buy. I don't own a Kindle nor an ipod or iphone. So, unless you found out how I can find the PID...?

And I was naturally talking about the TOPAZ books, which I could only buy on the PC. Not on any of the other devices I own.

[JSWolf]

I don't think Amazon will win at all. I think in the long run, they will lose. They reason being is interoperability is not there. I can take ePub books bought for my 505 and use them on a nook. I'm not locked into one company. I have the freedom to shop at multiple shops. Amazon doesn't give us this freedom. Amazon locks us in place. This is of course for DMRed content. If I was to decide I wanted to move to an iRex DR800G, I could do so and still keep my ePub content. I have choices that Amazon doesn't give me. To me, it seems that Jeff Bezos is a control freak. That's why he had Amazon create AZW and Topaz instead of just going Mobipocket.

[orwell2k]

Originally Posted by brecklundin

download Kindle Reader for the PC....the software for the IpOd/touch...so Amazon is targeting getting their reader software on other platforms in order to compete. Then you can jailbreak your AWZ books and read them wherever you wish. And I don't see Amazon converting every title to Topaz anytime soon...

I sense Amazon is banking on Win7 on a lot of mobile devices.

Just some idle thoughts...

So you need a PC (I have a Mac) and an iPhone/iPod Touch (I have neither). So to save a few bucks on Amazon books, I need to fork out hundreds of $$$ (or even more Euros) on a bunch of other devices/computers I don't need. Not really makking a lot of sense to me...

I have complained for (literally) years about the Sony and Amazon restrictions on selling their devices and eBooks outside the US. It's slowly opening up, but I'm afraid the horse has bolted as far as I'm concerned. I will never buy a Sony or Kindle device thanks to their ridiculous past policies, and advise others who ask me to do the same. Of course, each person must ultimately make their own decision, so I make it clear that that piece of advice is my opinion only.

But claiming a heartless leviathan like Amazon is better and will "win" the eBook wars is ludicrous. There are too many "victims" of the Sony/Kindle market restrictions around the globe for that to be forgotten anytime soon - so now it's payback time, and the only weapon a consumer has is to spend their hard-earned $$$ elsewhere - which I do with glee.

Most of our US eReader cousins are fairly ignorant of just how frustrating these restrictions can be when the only eBook version out is a Kindle copy. They got a little taste of the restriction blues when some titles were restricted against US customers - and didn't that raise a (brief) storm of comments on this forum! But those restrictions were mainly due to an error, as I understand it, so it as short-lived.

The rest of us have to suffer on. Add to that the extremely ironic deletion of Orwell's 1984 and Animal Farm from Kindles some months back - definitely an undocumented feature of the Whispernet technology, but a timely warning to us all to protect those e-purchases from Big Brother's prying eyes.

In the end, my sentiment is Screw you Amazon and Sony...

[EowynCarter]

If I had accidently downloaded a PDF on my Pocketbook 360 or my Sony, I could just reflow it on the device like I do with my library books.

Ah. Pocketbook does reflow too ?
Which one is better ? How well does reflow works ? Especialy in nasty situation like table and image ?

[Kali Yuga]

Originally Posted by kennyc

You're off target.

No, actually, I'm pretty much squarely on target. Right now music is probably the best parallel, since it is well into the transition to digital and has several similarities to ebooks.

Apple launched its music service using a rarely-used format with a DRM system that locked users into Apple devices (iPod) and software (iTunes/Quicktime). Despite the format issue, they have dominated online music sales (which is a huge chunk of the "digital music market," and since those figures include streaming services, I don't know what else you are referring to) and, as I also pointed out, has captured 1/4 of the overall music sales in the US, including physical CD sales.

Users also don't often ask a lot of questions about digital video formats, or what game engine their favorite FPS uses, and so forth.

As to the "general computing" market, it's difficult to compare the Amazon/ebook situation to the computing market. E.g. Apple has very different types and forms of competitors (e.g. Dell, HP, IBM, and countless others on hardware; Microsoft and Linux, which have very different models, for OS platform). They also have a fairly unique position, since none of their competitors control both the hardware and software to anywhere near the same extent as Apple. In contrast, Amazon's major competitors are all following the same tack -- make a device, make a store, sell both devices and ebooks.

That said: Apple is around the 5th largest computer seller in the US, their market share has increased over the last few years (7-10% depending on who's measuring), they are now sitting on a major cash hoard, and their market capitalization has swelled from $17bn in 2000 to $186bn now (which is not far off from Microsoft's, at $261bn). And despite their status as a minority platform, they still get major software vendors like Microsoft and Adobe to produce OS X-compatible apps.

I concur that few, if any, will say that Apple "dominates" the computer market (though it casts a long shadow and monopolizes media attention). But it's done quite well, for a platform that once had less than 5% of the market, and has ended up with an inordinate influence in some of the businesses it's jumped into, and every indication is that Apple will stick around for the foreseeable future.

Originally Posted by kennyc

Note that you said "If" -- that really is the key isn't it. Only history will tell, but based on history, it is the common format that will win.

Er... No. Unless you circularly define the "common format" as "the one that wins."

WMA hasn't "won" despite being used by more devices and by pretty much everyone except Apple. Real Audio didn't "lose" to a more common streaming format, people just stopped using it -- and now use diverse streaming methods (QT, podcasts, Flash-based players, etc). Blu-Ray didn't win its format war because it was in more "common use" (it wasn't -- HD sales were stronger for a time), it won because a few key corporations sided with Blu-Ray.

More to the point, I really can't think of many instances where a product that was lagging behind a market leader specifically gained a prominent, let alone dominant, position primarily on its changing to a common format.

And what's the best example of this? Why, Amazon, of course. Keeping in mind that they are a fairly recent entry to the market: Their digital music sales are MP3 files, the common DRM-free format that is compatible with pretty much everything, including iPods and iTunes. Their service is in 2nd place at, uh, 8% of digital music sales. (Oh, and most of that was gained from other services, not Apple.) Only 62% of the market left to capture! Piece of cake.

Originally Posted by kennyc

One supplier cannot stand alone against the world.

Sure they can, it happens all the time. Only Sony makes Playstations, only Nintendo makes Wii's, only Adobe makes Photoshop and InDesign and Illustrator and controls PDF technology, only Microsoft controls the Windows platform, Intel would do just fine if AMD didn't exist, etc.

Amazon has also battled with publishers before, e.g. selling used paper books and providing a link right on the same page where new books are sold. IIRC publishers were livid about it, but were unable to pressure Amazon into dropping it. Same for their attempts to force their own POD services down publisher's throats. Publishers are also tearing their hair out in the attempt to stop Amazon (and others) from making $9.99 the de facto ebook price. So it seems unlikely publishers will be able to force Amazon to change their ebook format, unless Amazon's market share craters and ends up in the single digits (which won't happen based on format alone).

As long as Amazon holds a significant portion of the market -- even just the US market -- publishers will have almost no choice except to convert their books. Freezing out 10-15% of the market isn't so bad; 40% is not an option though.

[luqmaninbmore]

Originally Posted by EowynCarter

Ah. Pocketbook does reflow too ?
Which one is better ? How well does reflow works ? Especialy in nasty situation like table and image ?

Reflow works pretty well. For tables and images, it's better to go with zoom and pan. Fortunately, with PB 360 it is easy to switch back and forth between both modes. It's pretty quick, as well, and, unlike the Sony, the zoom is persistent per book.

Luqman