Microsoft and the Xbox

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

And no, it's not acceptable that a lot of people who did not mod their console get banned.

You've made this claim a number of times. Could you point us to some evidence that a lot of people who have not modded their consoles have been banned?

[DawnFalcon]

Originally Posted by PKFFW

<nonsense>

Ah yes, there's the ignore button.

Anyway...

Harry - Certainly. Are you a games dev? Private forum you can access if so where there's some details (PM me for details if you are a games dev). Or there's the anonymous google groups invite-only mailing list discussing this. I don't have any invite slots left this year, feel free to ask another member.

But they're on a target for bans, not just "ban modders". I find that rather disturbing (ban quotas are...bad).

And I can confirm that one batch (75k I believe) were all banned, although apparently they're "working on unbanning" those. Looks like they have a slightly different drive in that batch and it triggered the flag. Incidentally, Microsoft never ever officially admit that a console was wrongly banned, it just starts working again. That's one way to avoid some legal liability.

I can absolutely confirm there's at least one unmodded console which has been banned in the UK, which the owner intends to bring legal action about. In fact, it's likely I'll be one of the witnesses that in the 18 hours he's owned the console he hasn't modded it. (In fact, it's been unpacked for less than 2).


Oh, and also? Seperately, you will get a gamertag ban if you play a legitimate game while logged into Live before the street date. Want to defend that as well?

Let's not even go into them disabling access to any memory sticks they don't themselves produce (not legitimate, even in America - see the old chestnut of the garrage door opener compatibility case). For reference, the PS3 can use any USB device for saves, even USB hard disks.

[HarryT]

Ignore me if you like, but it's a perfectly reasonable question to ask. You've made this claim; I'm simply asking you to back it up with some evidence.

[HarryT]

I'm not defending anything, DawnFalcon. It's simply that I follow the computer press reasonably closely, and I've not personally seen any reports that significant numbers of "innocent parties" have been adversely affected by this ban. You've made the claim that large numbers of people have been; it's a pity that you can't provide more details without requiring people to join "secret" forums to do so, because if true, then such information deserves to be made public, don't you think?

[DawnFalcon]

It certainly seems to me that you're strongly defending them.

I cannot make the actual data public without the express permission of the people involved. I'm sure you can understand that, and that in many cases the data...well, it's not really supposed to be out there in the first place even in private forums and abuse will mean in future it won't be. Anyway, it's only been a few days, more stories will come up.

Edit: Ahh....apparently there's a thread with data on Something Awful if you're a subscriber there. If you are you might want to check it out.


Also, bluntly, most of the "gaming press" either have a stick up their *** about piracy, or are members of the unauthorised copying counter-culture and are only interested in discussing ways to get intended-to-be-banned consoles unbanned.

(Why no, I do not like the gaming press. Herro idiots reviewing press releases. Several times, including once two weeks before the press copies went out, with a 6/10, nastily hurting games sales...)

[deltop]

There's so much anti-ms sentiment out there that any number of bloggers and news sites would jump at the chance to give them a bloody nose if there was was any serious data to back up your allegations.

If a large number of machines were being wrongly banned from Live we'd be hearing about it. Gaming is a mainstream activity now, if so many machines had been banned without cause you'd have many many ordinary people crying fowl and kicking up a fuss. Your average joe in the street here in the uk wouldn't put up with his 360 being blocked unfairly, he'd be straight onto his local trading standards rep.

I'm 33, a former coder who studied CS at university and certainly far far from MS's biggest fan. I'm also from the uk. I just can't see a problem when it comes to the advertising they use here. ANY service you subscribe to always comes with t&c's your expected to follow. Companies have a legal right to enforce these as long as they aren't violating a consumers rights in the process. Trying to insist that ms have no legal right to ban you from Live if you mod your box as per the t&c you agreed to when you signed up would most likely get you laughed out of court. If this isn't the case why haven't we seen any action against them in the many years ms have been doing this? Even if you were right and successfully mounted a campaign aginst them all that would happen is that they'd have to change their advertising a little. You wouldn't see people suddenly back on Live because of an advertising problem! They'd simply be told to simply fix their ads.

Sure if someone HAS been wrongly banned they're entitled to take legal action, no argument here and I'm sure there's a few people who have been wrongly hit with the ban stick. I know that ms have in the past had to unban a number of consoles due to them being wrongly tagged. Taking action against 3rd party memory sticks is very underhand too and in no way do I support that. The reliablity of their consoles is a joke too. But this isn't a "bash ms for whatever reason" thread we're taking specifically about Live and about MS's right to remove people from that service who mod their boxes. They operate a closed system which relies on strict control of all boxes and how they access that sytem. They'll also have companies such as Activision breathing down their necks to ensure that they take piracy seriously and ban machines.

[HarryT]

I'll tell you the thing that makes me a little doubtful about any significant number of innocent parties having been affected by this, DF. I'm not an "avid" gamer, but I have an XBox 360, and have spent a considerable amount of money on games over the last few years. If I hadn't touched my console in any way (which I haven't), and I got cut off from the "Live" service, and hence unable to play any multiplayer games, then I'd be screaming blue murder to anyone who would listen, and "Joe Public gets screwed by Large Corporation" is the type of story that the press absolutely adores - you can bet that it would make the news.

The fact that it's only the "Microsoft cuts off modded consoles" story that's made the news, and not the "innocent gamer gets cut off by evil Microsoft" (and I literally cannot find one single story saying anything like that) makes me highly dubious that it's occuring.

[PKFFW]

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

Ah yes, there's the ignore button.

Anyway...

Harry - Certainly. Are you a games dev? Private forum you can access if so where there's some details (PM me for details if you are a games dev). Or there's the anonymous google groups invite-only mailing list discussing this. I don't have any invite slots left this year, feel free to ask another member.

But they're on a target for bans, not just "ban modders". I find that rather disturbing (ban quotas are...bad).

And I can confirm that one batch (75k I believe) were all banned, although apparently they're "working on unbanning" those. Looks like they have a slightly different drive in that batch and it triggered the flag. Incidentally, Microsoft never ever officially admit that a console was wrongly banned, it just starts working again. That's one way to avoid some legal liability.

I can absolutely confirm there's at least one unmodded console which has been banned in the UK, which the owner intends to bring legal action about. In fact, it's likely I'll be one of the witnesses that in the 18 hours he's owned the console he hasn't modded it. (In fact, it's been unpacked for less than 2).


Oh, and also? Seperately, you will get a gamertag ban if you play a legitimate game while logged into Live before the street date. Want to defend that as well?

Let's not even go into them disabling access to any memory sticks they don't themselves produce (not legitimate, even in America - see the old chestnut of the garrage door opener compatibility case). For reference, the PS3 can use any USB device for saves, even USB hard disks.

So all the evidence you have is from "private forums" and secret societies???



Yes, please do put me on ignore if you haven't already!!

Cheers,
PKFFW

[PKFFW]

Originally Posted by deltop

There's so much anti-ms sentiment out there that any number of bloggers and news sites would jump at the chance to give them a bloody nose if there was was any serious data to back up your allegations.[/

If a large number of machines were being wrongly banned from Live we'd be hearing about it. Gaming is a mainstream activity now, if so many machines had been banned without cause you'd have many many ordinary people crying fowl and kicking up a fuss. Your average joe in the street here in the uk wouldn't put up with his 360 being blocked unfairly, he'd be straight onto his local trading standards rep.

Exactly right!

Originally Posted by deltop

I'm 33, a former coder who studied CS at university and certainly far far from MS's biggest fan. I'm also from the uk. I just can't see a problem when it comes to the advertising they use here.

Wait a minute......you are from the UK, have seen the UK ads and yet still actually know that the Xbox live service is an added extra that one must pay for and abide by certain T&C's in order to be allowed to use it? You aren't under the mistaken impression that simply because you bought an Xbox you automatically have the right to access Xbox live without having to abide by the T&C's? Amazing! By the sounds of it you must be some sort of super genius to have seen through all this weird, different and false advertising that is used in the UK.

Originally Posted by deltop

ANY service you subscribe to always comes with t&c's your expected to follow. Companies have a legal right to enforce these as long as they aren't violating a consumers rights in the process. Trying to insist that ms have no legal right to ban you from Live if you mod your box as per the t&c you agreed to when you signed up would most likely get you laughed out of court. If this isn't the case why haven't we seen any action against them in the many years ms have been doing this? Even if you were right and successfully mounted a campaign aginst them all that would happen is that they'd have to change their advertising a little. You wouldn't see people suddenly back on Live because of an advertising problem! They'd simply be told to simply fix their ads.

Again, exactly right. No court is going to rule that all the T&C's are invalid and that MS must allow all Xbox owners free and unfettered access to Xbox live.

Originally Posted by deltop

Sure if someone HAS been wrongly banned they're entitled to take legal action, no argument here and I'm sure there's a few people who have been wrongly hit with the ban stick. I know that ms have in the past had to unban a number of consoles due to them being wrongly tagged. Taking action against 3rd party memory sticks is very underhand too and in no way do I support that. The reliablity of their consoles is a joke too. But this isn't a "bash ms for whatever reason" thread we're taking specifically about Live and about MS's right to remove people from that service who mod their boxes. They operate a closed system which relies on strict control of all boxes and how they access that sytem. They'll also have companies such as Activision breathing down their necks to ensure that they take piracy seriously and ban machines.

Yes, funny that not even the big games manufactures are making any noise about MS screwing over the ENTIRE industry!!! Apparently it's only these private forums and secret societies that are clued up enough to know the truth.

Cheers,
PKFFW

[PKFFW]

Originally Posted by HarryT

I'll tell you the thing that makes me a little doubtful about any significant number of innocent parties having been affected by this, DF. I'm not an "avid" gamer, but I have an XBox 360, and have spent a considerable amount of money on games over the last few years. If I hadn't touched my console in any way (which I haven't), and I got cut off from the "Live" service, and hence unable to play any multiplayer games, then I'd be screaming blue murder to anyone who would listen, and "Joe Public gets screwed by Large Corporation" is the type of story that the press absolutely adores - you can bet that it would make the news.

The fact that it's only the "Microsoft cuts off modded consoles" story that's made the news, and not the "innocent gamer gets cut off by evil Microsoft" (and I literally cannot find one single story saying anything like that) makes me highly dubious that it's occuring.

Spot on Harry.

Very interesting that the source of DF's claims all comes down to private forums and secret societies. Not a single mainstream media outlet has thought to take up this story of mass bannings of innocent parties by MS.

Cheers,
PKFFW

[Sonist]

Some of the comments here, and in other DRM-related threads, remind me of an old Eastern Block joke:

At the annual gathering of high-ranking Communist Party officials in a provincial town, the talk turned to the subject of obedience, and how successful the Party policies have been in suppressing independent thought. At the end of the day, the participants decided to conduct an experiment, to evaluate how docile the local population really is.

So, they gathered all of the adults in the large town square, and announced: "To better fight imperialism, as of tomorrow, the work day is extended to 18 hours, without additional pay."

The crowd went quiet, the people evidently disturbed, but after a few minutes of silence, all proclaimed "Long Live the Great Leader!" and dispersed peacefully, and nobody complained.

On the next day, the Party officials decided to up the ante, gathered the population on the square, and announced "Our struggle against imperialism requires ever increasing resources. To obtain such resources, our great leaders have decided to sell organs to the greedy capitalists. Therefore, each of you is required to appear at the local hospital, where one of your kidneys will be removed."

Again, the crowd went quiet, the people evidently disturbed, but after a few minutes of silence, all proclaimed "Long Live the Great Leader!" and dispersed peacefully, and nobody complained.

On the third day, the surprised Party officials decided to see if there is a limit to the population's docility. So, they gathered the people again, and declared: "Our great secret police has received information, that there may be a copy of "Atlas Shrugged" circulating in this town. Therefore, to ensure that all enemies of the people are destroyed, we have decided to hang every one of you, tomorrow morning, at 8:00."

Deathly silence descended upon the crowd, with some sighing and some murmuring.

Finally, a small man in the back raised his hand. The Chairman, pointing to the man, asked: "Yes, comrade, do you have an objection to our decision?"

"No" the man answered. "We just wish to know, if each of us should bring their own rope, or will the Party provide it?"

[DawnFalcon]

Originally Posted by HarryT

I'd be screaming blue murder to anyone who would listen.

They are. They're being called pirates. The mainstream press isn't interested. And the private screaming hasn't yet really started because people are still waiting for the results of appeals (Which are going to take a few weeks, apparently). Are you sure you'd start screaming before you'd appealed? (I wouldn't).


deltop - And there are "automatically unfair" terms in the T&C's for Live (plain language and transparancy, 1(d), 1(f), 1(g), 1(i), 1(j), 1(k), 1(m), 1(o),arguably 1(p),1(q), also Unfair enforcement powers, Excluding the customer's right to assign, Exclusions and reservations of special rights, not to mention the seperate issue of multiple breaches of the distance selling regulations on issues such as refunds (a token currency itself is not a service) and information on "durable mediums" - the latter being silly for internet sales, but still the law!).

You're also still not differentiating between a complaint to the ASA and a civil action. A complaint to the ASA could only lead to the adverts being blocked, yes. Civil action can lead to unfair terms being set aside or revised.


And if Activision want to cut the industry's throat, yes. But they're not, and neither are EA - they both take a fairly pragmatic view towards piracy. They've refused to tread in the realm of lawsuits (unlike music and games) and are invested in largely pirate-proof enterprises like social gaming and MMO's. Oh, they're certainly not perfect - EA occasionally use DRM on PC games (and see the sales sink), and ATVI-B are still making sweeping claims regardling online rights, but they are in general still trying.

Trampling on customer's rights is not a good basis for a good ongoing relationship between you and they. If you want them to pay and keep on paying, you need trust.

Also, did someone hear a troll muttering? Yea...

[PKFFW]

Originally Posted by Sonist

Some of the comments here, and in other DRM-related threads, remind me of an old Eastern Block joke:

At the annual gathering of high-ranking Communist Party officials in a provincial town, the talk turned to the subject of obedience, and how successful the Party policies have been in suppressing independent thought. At the end of the day, the participants decided to conduct an experiment, to evaluate how docile the local population really is.

So, they gathered all of the adults in the large town square, and announced: "To better fight imperialism, as of tomorrow, the work day is extended to 18 hours, without additional pay."

The crowd went quiet, the people evidently disturbed, but after a few minutes of silence, all proclaimed "Long Live the Great Leader!" and dispersed peacefully, and nobody complained.

On the next day, the Party officials decided to up the ante, gathered the population on the square, and announced "Our struggle against imperialism requires ever increasing resources. To obtain such resources, our great leaders have decided to sell organs to the greedy capitalists. Therefore, each of you is required to appear at the local hospital, where one of your kidneys will be removed."

Again, the crowd went quiet, the people evidently disturbed, but after a few minutes of silence, all proclaimed "Long Live the Great Leader!" and dispersed peacefully, and nobody complained.

On the third day, the surprised Party officials decided to see if there is a limit to the population's docility. So, they gathered the people again, and declared: "Our great secret police has received information, that there may be a copy of "Atlas Shrugged" circulating in this town. Therefore, to ensure that all enemies of the people are destroyed, we have decided to hang every one of you, tomorrow morning, at 8:00."

Deathly silence descended upon the crowd, with some sighing and some murmuring.

Finally, a small man in the back raised his hand. The Chairman, pointing to the man, asked: "Yes, comrade, do you have an objection to our decision?"

"No" the man answered. "We just wish to know, if each of us should bring their own rope, or will the Party provide it?"

What's more amusing than that joke is the way you constantly allude to the idea that anyone who disagrees with you is a docile sheep willingly subjugating themselves to the big corporate capitalist pigs. I suppose it's easier to pretend superiority and throw veiled insults than it is to rationally debate.

For the record I believe in individual freedoms and rights just as much as you. I just happen to believe that with those rights and freedoms comes certain obligations. Prime among those obligations is to respect the rights and freedoms of others. That is something you have obviously forgotten or choose to ignore.

Cheers,
PKFFW

[PKFFW]

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

They are. They're being called pirates. The mainstream press isn't interested. And the private screaming hasn't yet really started because people are still waiting for the results of appeals (Which are going to take a few weeks, apparently). Are you sure you'd start screaming before you'd appealed? (I wouldn't).

I've never seen a mainstream media outlet yet that has passed up the opportunity to sling some mud at MS or Bill Gates.

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

deltop - And there are "automatically unfair" terms in the T&C's for Live (plain language and transparancy, 1(d), 1(f), 1(g), 1(i), 1(j), 1(k), 1(m), 1(o),arguably 1(p),1(q), also Unfair enforcement powers, Excluding the customer's right to assign, Exclusions and reservations of special rights, not to mention the seperate issue of multiple breaches of the distance selling regulations on issues such as refunds (a token currency itself is not a service) and information on "durable mediums" - the latter being silly for internet sales, but still the law!).

Please cite where the T&C's you list have been ruled "automatically unfair".

Or is that just your opinion since it hasn't been resolved in court?

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

You're also still not differentiating between a complaint to the ASA and a civil action. A complaint to the ASA could only lead to the adverts being blocked, yes. Civil action can lead to unfair terms being set aside or revised.

Again, please show where a Civil action that rules certain T&C's are invalid will automatically result in MS being ordered to allow all Xbox owners free access to Xbox live without any obligation to abide by the remaining T&C's.

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

And if Activision want to cut the industry's throat, yes. But they're not, and neither are EA - they both take a fairly pragmatic view towards piracy. They've refused to tread in the realm of lawsuits (unlike music and games) and are invested in largely pirate-proof enterprises like social gaming and MMO's. Oh, they're certainly not perfect - EA occasionally use DRM on PC games (and see the sales sink), and ATVI-B are still making sweeping claims regardling online rights, but they are in general still trying.

But surely if MS is screwing over the ENTIRE games industry it would behoove EA and Activision to make some noise about it? I mean if they stand by and allow MS to screw over the ENTIRE games industry without making any noise about it then their businesses will go belly up as they are part of said industry?

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

Trampling on customer's rights is not a good basis for a good ongoing relationship between you and they. If you want them to pay and keep on paying, you need trust.

Trust is a two way street. In your fantasy land it would seem only MS have to do the right thing and not the users of Xbox live.

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

Also, did someone hear a troll muttering? Yea...

Calling me a troll when your entire argument is based on evidence from private forums and secret societies that you are unwilling to share with anyone else!

Cheers,
PKFFW

[DawnFalcon]

I'm so sorry that I can share a limited amount of information, which I could of chosen not to and I won't bother in future since you hate it so much. Honestly you're acting worse than Ahi in a TeX thread.

"Please cite where the T&C's you list have been ruled "automatically unfair"."

Since you're too lazy to google: here and here. Also, again, you are showing a basic misunderstanding of UK contract law. The OFT are not going to chase down Microsoft, except as part of something like a monopoly case, for their T&C's. It's down to consumers to bring actions to enforce their rights under the act, and the unfair terms are listed in the law itself.


And no, it's not in the interest of ATVI-B or EA to piss off one of their major current dependencies until they can shift enough risk elsewhere. If you look at their current annouced games and business activity, they *are* moving work away from the 360. (Mostly to MMO's, handhelds and social gaming, and also away from the PS3 as a result of not being as interested in joint 360/PS3 projects, but not to the same degree)