Fantasy authors you (and I) should NEVER read

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

Now...now...now....that series was only seven books long, and science fiction to boot...

Six. Book seven is set in the same universe, but not part of the main series.

And I can make an argument that WoT is SF...

(Shut up Red! A Fontema would not make a great logo for the IMF...)

Oh. I dunno. Lots of things an animate dumbbell would be appropriate for. There are certainly enough dumbbells it could represent.
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Dennis

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by wayrad

DKS does lovely textures; it's too bad his human figures so often are strangely proportioned and oddly sized.

I've met him. He's a hell of a nice guy, and always frantically busy but seems to thrive on overwork.

He's frantically busy because he's more or less the generic fantasy cover artist. You just have to glance at one of his covers and you have a good idea of what you're getting.

There are other artists who are arguably technically better, but Sweet is appropriate for the WoT covers in a way they wouldn't be.
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Dennis

[=X=]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

Not really. I met him. He had another series (SF, not fantasy) that he wanted to write, but had to finish WoT first.

You know JR Tolkien wrote a great story in 3 books, how could Jordon after 12 books still couldn't finish his story?! Mind you his books weren't short either they where quite long. You know if you put all of Tolkien 3 books together I think they equal one of Jordon longer books.

What I noticed is Jordon style changed in the middle of the series, he started adding a lot of detail that did not enhance the story just dragged it on. It became a choir to finish his books.

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

Unfortunately, he lost control of his material.

That's another way to put it

=X=

[BenG]

Not to mention he stopped in the middle of everything to write a prequel, New Spring. Originally it was a short story for Silverberg's Legends anthology, then he rewrote it as a full length novel. I think he was getting bored with the whole thing.

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by =X=

You know JR Tolkien wrote a great story in 3 books, how could Jordon after 12 books still couldn't finish his story?! Mind you his books weren't short either they where quite long. You know if you put all of Tolkien 3 books together I think they equal one of Jordon longer books.

Tolkien described The Lord of the Rings as "a tale that grew in the telling". I doubt he had a clear idea when he set out of exactly what form it would take and how long it would be, and I believe the three volume form we got was dictated by publishing technology of the time, and limits on how big a book could be in a single volume.

What I noticed is Jordon style changed in the middle of the series, he started adding a lot of detail that did not enhance the story just dragged it on. It became a choir to finish his books.

That wasn't really apparent to me, but I haven't gone back to re-read. You may be right. Personally, I'm patient, and while I wouldn't have minded a shorter interval between books, I recognize that stories can go off in directions the author hadn't planned. Sometime characters reach up off the page, grab the author by the collar, give her a good shake, and yell "No, no, no! You ninny! That's not what happened. This is what happened...!"

(Diane Duane told a story about being in the middle of a Star Trek novel when two male characters from a fantasy she was writing wandered in hand in hand, said "By the way, we're gay!", and wandered out. In a spirit of serendipity, the next line in the ST book had Captain Kirk saying "Who were those guys?" )
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Dennis

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by astra

Avoid (piles of turd):

The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, The Unbeliever by Stephen R. Donaldson
Earthsea 5 books by Ursula Le Guin
American Gods by Neil Gaiman
The Book of the New Sun series starting with The Shadow of the Torturer by Gene Wolfe
Crown of Stars by Kate Elliott

Since I adored the first three on your list--and pretty much everything else I've read by those authors--I suspect I should take the other two as must-read recommendations.

(I'm entirely unconcerned about whether my taste in books is "good" or "bad." Considering that I've read over half a million words of DCU fanfic in the last few weeks, I think it's a fairly irrelevant consideration.)

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

Since I adored the first three on your list--and pretty much everything else I've read by those authors--I suspect I should take the other two as must-read recommendations.

I'd call Gene Wolfe's "Book of the New Sun" series a must-read.

But note it's SF, not fantasy. It's set on a very far future Earth where the sun has become a red dwarf and will someday go out entirely. In some respects it's a homage to Jack Vance's _The Dying Earth_, but Wolfe is working in deeper waters. The series depicts the adventures of Severian, who begins as a torturer in the service of the Autarch of his land, but who may just be the prophesied savior who will travel into space and convince the powers that dwell there to kindle a new sun and renew the Earth.

Wolfe is Roman Catholic, and there's a religious underpinning and concerns, but you have to read _The Urth of the New Sun_, a grace note issued after the series, to see it made explicit.

Just wonderful stuff. I consider Wolfe one of the best living writers, period.
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Dennis

[EatingPie]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

Since I adored the first three on your list--and pretty much everything else I've read by those authors--I suspect I should take the other two as must-read recommendations.

(I'm entirely unconcerned about whether my taste in books is "good" or "bad." Considering that I've read over half a million words of DCU fanfic in the last few weeks, I think it's a fairly irrelevant consideration.)

I actually enjoyed the Torturer books, but Woolfe has a very strange style of writing. He also wrote a book about Greek times, presuming the gods were real IIRC. I kept thinking it was the torturer character in Greece.

He wrote a Young Adult novel that was an atrocity... can't recall that title either.

I'd call Gene Wolfe's "Book of the New Sun" series a must-read.

But note it's SF, not fantasy. It's set on a very far future Earth where the sun has become a red dwarf and will someday go out entirely.

It's really only SF on a technicality. In terms of setting/action (sword and sorcerer... er... torturer!) it fits more squarely in a fantasy genre. Well, until he boards the space ship in the second series... but then it becomes a lot less coherent anyway.

Similarly, Robert Jordan is considered fantasy, but his work takes place in a different universe, and is in a world that had technology, but lost it.

-Pie

[astra]

Originally Posted by EatingPie

It's really only SF on a technicality. In terms of setting/action (sword and sorcerer... er... torturer!) it fits more squarely in a fantasy genre. Well, until he boards the space ship in the second series... but then it becomes a lot less coherent anyway.
-Pie

How could it be more less than it was in the first series in the first place? Gosh!

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

I'd call Gene Wolfe's "Book of the New Sun" series a must-read.

But note it's SF, not fantasy.

A distinction I enjoy noting, but is irrelevant to my potential reading enjoyment.

Wolfe is Roman Catholic, and there's a religious underpinning and concerns, but you have to read _The Castle of the Otter_, a grace note issued after the series, to see it made explicit.

Often, I love books with subtle religious themes. Sometimes I hate them; it seems to depend on whether they come across as "spiritual" or "monotheistic."

[=X=]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

Tolkien described The Lord of the Rings as "a tale that grew in the telling". I doubt he had a clear idea when he set out of exactly what form it would take and how long it would be, and I believe the three volume form we got was dictated by publishing technology of the time, and limits on how big a book could be in a single volume.

Yes I do recall seeing a documentary where Tolkein had to break up his books into several books.
What you say is still true today there are probably limits imposed on authors today. The scary thing is size is a bit harder to grasp electronically and one thing that scares me is authors not feeling a need to refine their work down to a tolerable page size.

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

That wasn't really apparent to me, but I haven't gone back to re-read. You may be right. Personally, I'm patient, and while I wouldn't have minded a shorter interval between books, I recognize that stories can go off in directions the author hadn't planned.

I recognize that for many folks the experience of getting lost in a world is part of the fun, I have several friends that enjoyed that aspect of the series. Unfortunately for me I cannot enjoy that aspect alone. I realized after reading his latest book, at the time, I no longer enjoyed the his books they felt more like a chore to read than pleasure.

A book needs to move forward with some direction, his books just seemed to be moving away with no real direction. Just think 20yrs later and he still has not closed the series. He had to pass-away and somebody else take over for the series to end.

=X=

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by =X=

Yes I do recall seeing a documentary where Tolkein had to break up his books into several books.

Tolkien wasn't an author in the usual sense we think of nowadays. He was a college professor who began by inventing languages, and then invented the people who spoke those languages, and their history.

He was also trying to craft a specifically British branch of Faery, which meant derivations from Norse and Germanic sources, and no drawing from Celtic mythology.

But I suspect he didn't even think about the practical issues of publishing his work until he had it to the point where Unwin and Allen, his original publishers, took an interest.

He was refining the story taking shape in his head, through many iterations. I have some of the volumes of annotated manuscripts his son Christopher has been releasing, and it's interesting to watch the development over time.

What you say is still true today there are probably limits imposed on authors today.

There are indeed. They are greater than they used to be, but will still be limits on how large a single book can be.

The scary thing is size is a bit harder to grasp electronically and one thing that scares me is authors not feeling a need to refine their work down to a tolerable page size.

"Page size"?

Oh, I think size is graspable for authors. Especially when the default standard writing tool is Microsoft Word, and Word apparently gets troublesome on really long manuscripts.

I recognize that for many folks the experience of getting lost in a world is part of the fun, I have several friends that enjoyed that aspect of the series. Unfortunately for me I cannot enjoy that aspect alone. I realized after reading his latest book, at the time, I no longer enjoyed the his books they felt more like a chore to read than pleasure.

A book needs to move forward with some direction, his books just seemed to be moving away with no real direction. Just think 20yrs later and he still has not closed the series. He had to pass-away and somebody else take over for the series to end.

As of the last couple that Jordan did, there was motion. I got a sense of zwischenzug (German for "intermediate move"), to use a chess term. He was moving his pieces on the board, and getting things positioned for the end game.

I'm sorry he didn't live to complete things himself, and I'll be curious to see what Brian Sanderson has done. I have suspicions about a couple of places where Jordan might have been going in his development, but one of the things he's been good at is not going where he seems to be. When you read his books and say "I bet I know what's going to happen next!", chances are you're wrong.
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Dennis

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

Often, I love books with subtle religious themes. Sometimes I hate them; it seems to depend on whether they come across as "spiritual" or "monotheistic."

I'd call this one "spiritual". Ultimately, it's about sin and redemption, and that's handled in orthodox enough fashion, even if some other aspects might raise an orthodox theologian's eyebrows.
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Dennis

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by EatingPie

I actually enjoyed the Torturer books, but Woolfe has a very strange style of writing. He also wrote a book about Greek times, presuming the gods were real IIRC. I kept thinking it was the torturer character in Greece.

<...>

It's really only SF on a technicality. In terms of setting/action (sword and sorcerer... er... torturer!) it fits more squarely in a fantasy genre. Well, until he boards the space ship in the second series... but then it becomes a lot less coherent anyway.

No, it's clearly SF from early on. We learn quickly that Severian lives in a world whose gear is basically scavenged from the trash heaps of history. A lot of what is in common use is literally excavated in what are effectively archaeological digs through the remains of civilizations centuries or millennia extinct.

We also learn that humanity had once traveled in space, and that characters like Father Inire are hierodules - aliens from elsewhere residing on Earth.

Call it science fantasy if you like, but despite the tropes, it's not really pure fantasy. Trying to claim it for fantasy is like making the same claim for Anne McCaffrey's Pern series if you come in in the middle. Pern is a lost colony whose settlers got there by starship, and the dragons are products of genetic engineering on the indigenous fire lizards. But come to the books in the middle, and you see a roughly medieval society with fire breathing dragons, don't see the back story, and say "A ha! Fantasy! I recognize it by the tropes!" Er, no...

Similarly, Robert Jordan is considered fantasy, but his work takes place in a different universe, and is in a world that had technology, but lost it.

Yes. There are hints in early books that our time is the age before the Age of Wonders, with dim legends of the nations of Merk and Mosc dueling with lances of fire.

There are also hints scattered in the books that man had even traveled in space. It did indeed have high technology, save that the One Power was the energy source.

One of the things Rand Al Thor has been doing in recent books is encouraging the development of other energy sources besides the One Power, like steam powered vehicles. One interesting resolution for the series would be for Al Thor to solve the problems inherent in the One Power by blocking it. I suspect he has the ability to make the entire world the equivalent of on of the Ogier steadings, when the True Source cannot be sensed.

"Okay, the Great Lord of the Dark has been stuffed back into his prison and can't get out to touch the world. And now nobody can channel. I've blocked access to the True Source. You'll have to find other sources of power for what you want to do..."

That would well and truly break the world beyond the worst nightmares of the Aes Sedai in Tar Valon. (I've felt for some time they've erred in taking prophecies about the Dragon Reborn "breaking the world" too literally, and he's already changed things beyond recognition.)
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Dennis

[EatingPie]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

No, it's clearly SF from early on. We learn quickly that Severian lives in a world whose gear is basically scavenged from the trash heaps of history. A lot of what is in common use is literally excavated in what are effectively archaeological digs through the remains of civilizations centuries or millenia extinct.

We also learn that humanity had once traveled in space, and that characters like Father Inire are hierodules - aliens from elsewhere residing on Earth.

Call it science fantasy if you like, but despite the tropes, it's not really pure fantasy. Trying to claim it for fantasy is like making the same claim for Anne McCaffrey's Pern series if you come in in the middle. Pern is a lost colony whose settlers got there by starship, and the dragons are products of genetic engineering on the indigenous fire lizards. But come to the books in the middle, and you see a roughly medieval society with fire breathing dragons, don't see the back story, and say "A ha! Fantasy! I recognize it by the tropes!" Er, no...

These books definitely walk a line. They are structured and have the "tropes" but they exist within a scientific explanation. (Not so much Pern as the other two.) Or are a mix of science fiction and fantasy spun together.

I think Wolfe's term "Urth" kind of captures this dichotomy (or mixture I guess). "Ur" meaning old. But it's Earth of the far, far future. So it's futuristic science fiction with the old-age fantasy elements. Or, as I've heard it described, "it's so far in the future, it looks like the past."

One of the things Rand Al Thor has been doing in recent books is encouraging the development of other energy sources besides the One Power, like steam powered vehicles. One interesting resolution for the series would be for Al Thor to solve the problems inherent in the One Power by blocking it. I suspect he has the ability to make the entire world the equivalent of on of the Ogier steadings, when the True Source cannot be sensed.

"Okay, the Great Lord of the Dark has been stuffed back into his prison and can't get out to touch the world. And now nobody can channel. I've blocked access to the True Source. You'll have to find other sources of power for what you want to do..."

That would well and truly break the world beyond the worst nightmares of the Aes Sedai in Tar Valon. (I've felt for some time they've erred in taking prophecies about the Dragon Reborn "breaking the world" to literally, and he's already changed things beyond recognition.)

All I can say to this is... Publish it! That description/speculation was more interesting and exciting than anything I'd read in WoT in at least 1 and a half full books!

-Pie