Microsoft and the Xbox - Page 8

Sonist · 11-14-2009, 02:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dmaul1114

You add nothing to the discussion by tossing out silly hyperbole....

...

People have no right to be on that network, it's a privilege....

Bleh, so what are you going to do? Ban me, because in your little dmaul universe, my argument is deemed a "silly hyperbole?" I see why you agree with MS's position....

And, yes, one may have a "right," if they've bought a box which is widely acknowledged as hackable, is heavily advertised as offering Live benefits (including non-game stuff like Netflix,) and if you've been paying Live fees for a while.

But you and a few others, don't seem to get the larger, "slippery slope" point.

It also appears, that the economic argument for the role of hackers and "pirates" in an non-competitive environment, escapes you.

Yeah, we got it, you HATE "pirates." You're headed straight to DMCA heaven....

As I said above, "bleh."

PKFFW · 11-14-2009, 03:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sonist

But you and a few others, don't seem to get the larger, "slippery slope" point.

Bleh.....everything is a "slippery slope" these days.

Cheers,
PKFFW

Sonist · 11-14-2009, 03:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PKFFW

Bleh.....everything is a "slippery slope" these days.

Cheers,
PKFFW

Bleh, evidently not..., to those, who are already at the bottom....

PKFFW · 11-14-2009, 04:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sonist

Bleh, evidently not..., to those, who are already at the bottom....

Or for those who are at the top and sure of their footing.

deltop · 11-14-2009, 07:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sonist

And, yes, one may have a "right," if they've bought a box which is widely acknowledged as hackable, is heavily advertised as offering Live benefits (including non-game stuff like Netflix,) and if you've been paying Live fees for a while.

Oh come on everyone who mods their 360's knows fine well what the consequences are. You mod it you risk being banned from Live. No if's no buts. Everyone knows this.

Besides what do you advocate? Companies being forced to let everyone use their service regardless of the consequences? Regardless of the fact that this would open up the system to cheaters on a massive scale that would inconvenience the vast majority of people who don't play copied games?

I hate this me me me culture where everyone has rights but no one seems to want to be responsilbe either.

Like I've said earlier I have a modded box but if/when it gets banned I won't go crying about it and try to force MS to let me back on THEIR network.

DawnFalcon · 11-14-2009, 08:01 AM

Again, what happens when you get banned is well documented. So...

They "could" purchase games. But they won't. And writing them off as customers simply because they've verifyably played one pirates game? Is a bluntly stupid thing to do... the number of hardcore pirates is small. Not banning the hardware (but nuking the account, with their achievements and gamerscore, which matters more to most of them!) for good means there's a chance you'll regain them as customers. This is.. not very advanced psychology.

I'm also not going to argue UK advertising law with you either, two law students agree with me that there's a clear expectation issue regarding the adverts. And if there is an expectation, then that does indeed tie Microsoft's hands and negate large portions of their terms and conditions.

I'm quite willing to stand by my beliefs with a heck of a lot more just than my opinion, I'm interested in taking part in (and am trying to) a startup based on them. If we can get funding, we'll be doing some...interesting...games.

Moejoe · 11-14-2009, 08:39 AM

It's all a pointless merry-go-round anyway. This whack-a-mole security game will always end up a fruitless endeavour. The Light Touch fix puts all those 'banned' consoles back on live.

DawnFalcon · 11-14-2009, 08:53 AM

Um. There are some substantial barriers to it working without having done a keyvault dump prior to recent updates, and having the keyvault of another 360 and having them being exclusive (both can't be on at the same time) on XBox live.

This is not an easy fix, or one which will be widely applied. It's a dedicated hacker's fix.

HarryT · 11-14-2009, 08:59 AM

Isn't it a lot easier simply to follow the terms of service and not mod your XBox?

DawnFalcon · 11-14-2009, 09:10 AM

Yes. What does that have to do with the pragmatic view that writing customers off entirely after they've used a modified drive firmware just dosn't make sense for revenue?

HarryT · 11-14-2009, 09:16 AM

Perhaps Microsoft feel that those who really do want to carry on playing legally bought games will go and buy another XBox, and hence it will be beneficial to revenue?

There's perhaps also the point that doing something like this, which has been so widely reported in the press, may perhaps deter people from wanting to use pirated games in the future. ie, it demonstrates that they are serious about their terms of service.

Moejoe · 11-14-2009, 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

Um. There are some substantial barriers to it working without having done a keyvault dump prior to recent updates, and having the keyvault of another 360 and having them being exclusive (both can't be on at the same time) on XBox live.

This is not an easy fix, or one which will be widely applied. It's a dedicated hacker's fix.

Agreed, or your local black-market modder who will perform the service for a nominal fee

Moejoe · 11-14-2009, 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

Perhaps Microsoft feel that those who really do want to carry on playing legally bought games will go and buy another XBox, and hence it will be beneficial to revenue?

There's perhaps also the point that doing something like this, which has been so widely reported in the press, may perhaps deter people from wanting to use pirated games in the future. ie, it demonstrates that they are serious about their terms of service.

This does nothing, except maybe provide the serious tinkerers with something new to work on. This deters nobody from modding their xbox or downloading/buying copied games. If they reduced their prices to the same as everyone's favourite local shady game-dealer, then piracy would be pointless (except as a proof of concept). Charge £5 game and you'll see 90% of piracy disappear overnight.

HarryT · 11-14-2009, 09:25 AM

I strongly suspect that it's impractical to charge £5 for modern games, considering their enormous cost of production. Personally I just wait a couple of months, and then buy a 2nd hand copy. That's generally about half the price of buying new.

DawnFalcon · 11-14-2009, 09:32 AM

And how do you think that helps the industry?

I'm interested in legal ways of undercutting the second hand games industry, like a proper returns mechanism, incidentally. (For a console, a return would de-authorise the game of you've copied it to the hard disk and remove it from your achievements/gamerscore, for instance)

Moejoe - I think you misunderstand the current hack. Unless you have a previous keyvault dump via Xell, there's nothing which can be done, and most people won't have done that (I don't even have a working 360, I'd add, I just subscribe to "know thy enemy").

There's no proof that cheaper casual games suffer from less unauthorised copying. Actually, there's some evidence the rate's higher because of perception-of-value issues. More, cutting games price (which I agree is a good idea, for other reasons, just not that much) is basically impossible on consoles because the platform holders take a fixed cut, not a percentage.

11-14-2009, 08:01 AM	#111
DawnFalcon Banned Posts: 2,094 Karma: 2682 Join Date: Aug 2009 Device: N/A	Again, what happens when you get banned is well documented. So... They "could" purchase games. But they won't. And writing them off as customers simply because they've verifyably played one pirates game? Is a bluntly stupid thing to do... the number of hardcore pirates is small. Not banning the hardware (but nuking the account, with their achievements and gamerscore, which matters more to most of them!) for good means there's a chance you'll regain them as customers. This is.. not very advanced psychology. I'm also not going to argue UK advertising law with you either, two law students agree with me that there's a clear expectation issue regarding the adverts. And if there is an expectation, then that does indeed tie Microsoft's hands and negate large portions of their terms and conditions. I'm quite willing to stand by my beliefs with a heck of a lot more just than my opinion, I'm interested in taking part in (and am trying to) a startup based on them. If we can get funding, we'll be doing some...interesting...games. Last edited by DawnFalcon; 11-14-2009 at 08:04 AM.

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11-14-2009, 08:39 AM	#112
Moejoe Banned Posts: 5,100 Karma: 72193 Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: South of the Border Device: Coffin	It's all a pointless merry-go-round anyway. This whack-a-mole security game will always end up a fruitless endeavour. The Light Touch fix puts all those 'banned' consoles back on live.

11-14-2009, 08:53 AM	#113
DawnFalcon Banned Posts: 2,094 Karma: 2682 Join Date: Aug 2009 Device: N/A	Um. There are some substantial barriers to it working without having done a keyvault dump prior to recent updates, and having the keyvault of another 360 and having them being exclusive (both can't be on at the same time) on XBox live. This is not an easy fix, or one which will be widely applied. It's a dedicated hacker's fix.

11-14-2009, 08:59 AM	#114
HarryT eBook Enthusiast Posts: 85,544 Karma: 93383099 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: UK Device: Kindle Oasis 2, iPad Pro 10.5", iPhone 6	Isn't it a lot easier simply to follow the terms of service and not mod your XBox?

11-14-2009, 09:10 AM	#115
DawnFalcon Banned Posts: 2,094 Karma: 2682 Join Date: Aug 2009 Device: N/A	Yes. What does that have to do with the pragmatic view that writing customers off entirely after they've used a modified drive firmware just dosn't make sense for revenue?

11-14-2009, 09:16 AM	#116
HarryT eBook Enthusiast Posts: 85,544 Karma: 93383099 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: UK Device: Kindle Oasis 2, iPad Pro 10.5", iPhone 6	Perhaps Microsoft feel that those who really do want to carry on playing legally bought games will go and buy another XBox, and hence it will be beneficial to revenue? There's perhaps also the point that doing something like this, which has been so widely reported in the press, may perhaps deter people from wanting to use pirated games in the future. ie, it demonstrates that they are serious about their terms of service.

11-14-2009, 09:25 AM	#119
HarryT eBook Enthusiast Posts: 85,544 Karma: 93383099 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: UK Device: Kindle Oasis 2, iPad Pro 10.5", iPhone 6	I strongly suspect that it's impractical to charge £5 for modern games, considering their enormous cost of production. Personally I just wait a couple of months, and then buy a 2nd hand copy. That's generally about half the price of buying new.

11-14-2009, 09:32 AM	#120
DawnFalcon Banned Posts: 2,094 Karma: 2682 Join Date: Aug 2009 Device: N/A	And how do you think that helps the industry? I'm interested in legal ways of undercutting the second hand games industry, like a proper returns mechanism, incidentally. (For a console, a return would de-authorise the game of you've copied it to the hard disk and remove it from your achievements/gamerscore, for instance) Moejoe - I think you misunderstand the current hack. Unless you have a previous keyvault dump via Xell, there's nothing which can be done, and most people won't have done that (I don't even have a working 360, I'd add, I just subscribe to "know thy enemy"). There's no proof that cheaper casual games suffer from less unauthorised copying. Actually, there's some evidence the rate's higher because of perception-of-value issues. More, cutting games price (which I agree is a good idea, for other reasons, just not that much) is basically impossible on consoles because the platform holders take a fixed cut, not a percentage.