Microsoft and the Xbox

[PKFFW]

Originally Posted by Shaggy

No, but in countries where modding has specifically been legalized they are attempting to overrule those laws with their EULA. Whether or not an EULA is allowed to take away legal rights is questionable. In such countries, MS is basically saying that in order to use the LIVE service you have to give up your legal right to modify the hardware. That's not likely to stand up in court.

Just as in order to drive a car you must give up your legal right to be over 0.05 PCA at that time.(at least here in Australia) Is that the government trying to take away your legal right to get drunk? No. You can get drunk any time you wish. You simply must then accept the consequence of not being allowed to drive.

MS is not denying you any legal right. You own the Xbox and can mod it if you so choose. MS owns the live "service" for which they have a set of rules you must abide by if you wish to use.

Cheers,
PKFFW

[Shaggy]

Originally Posted by PKFFW

Just as in order to drive a car you must give up your legal right to be over 0.05 PCA at that time.(at least here in Australia) Is that the government trying to take away your legal right to get drunk? No.

There's a big difference between a government taking away rights by passing laws (that's what laws are for), and a private company taking away legal rights in a contract.

[PKFFW]

Originally Posted by Shaggy

True, but they're not letting people outside the age range sign up for the holiday, pay their money, and then deny it based on the clauses in a contract. They prevent them from signing up in the first place. That's not quite the same thing.

An equivalent would be if a holiday company let someone who was 49 sign up for a cruise that required people to be under 50, pay their money, and then kick them off the ship without a refund because they had a birthday during the cruise. I think the individual would have a much stronger case for age discrimination in that scenario.

Having a birthday is not really something someone can choose to do or not and is therefore a bit of a stretch as an analogy. I think a more accurate example would be if someone signed up for a cruise claiming to be under 50 years of age and then the cruise company found out that person was lying and was actually over 50 years of age. In that case the company would certainly be within their rights to remove the person from the cruise.

Frankly, in that situation I don't see how anyone could even suggest the person found to be lying about their age was being mistreated or wronged. They knowingly broke the terms of service and were rightly removed from the cruise.

Cheers,
PKFFW

[deltop]

Originally Posted by Shaggy

I don't see how, unless you're distributing it. Modifying your own 360 shouldn't be a copyright violation.



Not from what others on this thread are saying. Maybe the modified firmware you're using only allows that, but there seem to be people modifying theirs for other reasons.

People don't hack the firmware on their 360's drives themselves. Very few people in the world actually have the knowhow to do this. They download an already modded copy of the firmware which has been tweaked to enable the drive to bypass the disk's protection. This in itself probably causes all sorts of problems when it comes to copyright, the firmware code isn't written from scratch, the original firmware is decrypted from the drive and then hacked at until it works as needed. And this still doesn't bypass region coding!

There also seems to be some confusion as to the xbox1 and the newer xbox 360. The old xbox1 could be modded (via a chip) to run unsigned code which gave it uses other than to play pirate copies. But no one does this on the 360 it's just too difficult and involves an awfull lot of work just so you can then do amazing stuff like run linux (wow! - not). It also involves using an older 360 kernel which then means no Live access anyway! You have to keep your 360 uptodate to use Live.

So lots of wrong and out of date information in this thread that doesn't apply to the op.

Oh and if someone can point me to some reliable evidence showing more than a tiny proportion of legit users being banned I'd love to see it. In my experience most people who maintain they weren't using a modded console but were banned were either lying or reverted their firmware back after being tagged. MS tags consoles months and months before the ban takes place so reverting won't always help.

[PKFFW]

Originally Posted by Sonist

So, if MS made it clear, that if you modify your XBOX, they'll come and take it away, that's O.K. too?

Or if Amazon sent a "kill" command to all Kindles with modified fonts, or containing items with stripped DRM, or which have been taken to countries where the Kindle is not sold? I dunno, maybe there is such a clause in their EULA....

No. As has been stated time and again, you own the Xbox and can do what you like with it as it is your property.

MS on the other hand owns and operates the live service to which they allow you access if you abide by their terms of service.

It seems many here are getting the two confused. Believing that by purchasing an Xbox one is bestowed with some legal right to access the Xbox live service. This is not the case. It is akin to saying "I have the right to access Xbox live and shouldn't have to pay the access fee because I own an Xbox". Of course you don't. You only have the right to access Xbox live if you abide by all the terms of service of the agreement, including paying the access fee and accessing it with an Xbox that has not been modded.

Originally Posted by Sonist

How easily we give up the rights of others.

And how easily we place our own rights above the rights of others.

Cheers,
PKFFW

[PKFFW]

Originally Posted by Shaggy

There's a big difference between a government taking away rights by passing laws (that's what laws are for), and a private company taking away legal rights in a contract.

Of course there is.

It's a good thing then that MS is not taking away any of your rights.

Cheers,
PKFFW

[dmaul1114]

Originally Posted by Sonist

So, if MS made it clear, that if you modify your XBOX, they'll come and take it away, that's O.K. too?

Or if Amazon sent a "kill" command to all Kindles with modified fonts, or containing items with stripped DRM, or which have been taken to countries where the Kindle is not sold? I dunno, maybe there is such a clause in their EULA....

How easily we give up the rights of others.

You add nothing to the discussion by tossing out silly hyperbole. We'd all agree that there's a line companies can't cross.

If you buy a product, it can't be taken away from you or functionally disabled.

But that's a far cry from a company voiding warraties if people open things up--as they could break it and the company get stuck fixing damage from their supidity.

Or from companies blocking hacked machines from THEIR networks that they own and run. People have no right to be on that network, it's a privilege. You agree to a host of things when signing up and no you can be banned without refund for things like using modded consoles, cheating, having complaints filed for foul language etc.

And the below post makes this point very well.

Originally Posted by deltop

What about the right of Microsoft to run their own service and run it as they see fit?

What about my right to play games on Live free from hackers and people who use exploits to cheat? Far too many people cheat on Live through the use of modded consoles.

It's there network, and they have every right to kick modded machines off of it, and I applaud them for it for the reasons above.

Maybe a few people are getting caught in the net who shouldn't, and hopefully the screening should be improved.

But otherwise, I'm not going to lose sleep over nerd hackers who like modding stuff getting booted, especially those using it to cheat or pirate stuff. But I do feel bad for people who haven't modded and got erroneously banned, and those in Australia who can legally mod due to region locks--again MS should have unlocked the console or just choosen not to bother with that market.

[Luxi]

Originally Posted by deltop

What about the right of Microsoft to run their own service and run it as they see fit?

What about my right to play games on Live free from hackers and people who use exploits to cheat? Far too many people cheat on Live through the use of modded consoles.

I totally agree with this. And really, if I pay for a game I don't want people who have copied it to cause lag on LIVE servers

Btw, when you create a Live account you have to accept the terms of service.

[DawnFalcon]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Microsoft are not doing anything to your XBox

Yes, they are. Hint: Try getting a banned console, making a save game, and copying it to another console. See if it loads. People have actually traced changes being made to the console's NAND memory when a ban occurs, so you're 100% wrong on that I'm afraid - there are several changes related to that and the keyvault which change the way key signing and several other features of the 360 work.

Also, why do you assume they're breaking no laws? They are certainly breaking several about refunds and advertising from my perspective.



deltop - Microsoft are not a person, they're a corperation. They're not the same thing in law. They have to comply with the relevant law on their product offering, end of story.

Also, cite on cheating? Microsoft basically don't do any anti-cheating and it's trivial to fool what there is (and it's a p2p not client/server architecture), but the method I've seen details for is man-in-the-middle, not modding.


pkffw - Yes, you do. The right is established by Microsoft's advertising. Lumping them together in UK advertising was...unsmart.


Anyway, the current evidence is if you've changed hard disk to ones with certain service numbers (legally), tried to load certain kinds of corrupted save game (ongoing investigations into that, but the problem was the *games* in question corrupting saves) while connected or even simply have one complete hardware run? Oops, you're banned.

That's what people are defending. Also, it utterly *** over future revenue streams...I don't get why people don't understand /that/.

[PKFFW]

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

Yes, they are. Hint: Try getting a banned console, making a save game, and copying it to another console. See if it loads. People have actually traced changes being made to the console's NAND memory when a ban occurs, so you're 100% wrong on that I'm afraid - there are several changes related to that and the keyvault which change the way key signing and several other features of the 360 work.

As I've stated previously, personal experience from 3 of my friends shows there may be more to this story than those who have been banned are claiming. All 3 friends have been banned and their Xbox's work normally in all other respects.

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

pkffw - Yes, you do. The right is established by Microsoft's advertising. Lumping them together in UK advertising was...unsmart.

I don't know the exact advertising campaign MS use in the UK but here in Australia they advertise that you have the option of using Xbox live, not the right. Further, in that advertising it is made clear that there is a fee involved along with other "terms and conditions".

Never in Australia have MS advertised that by buying an Xbox you have the inalienable right to access the Xbox live service.

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

Anyway, the current evidence is if you've changed hard disk to ones with certain service numbers (legally), tried to load certain kinds of corrupted save game (ongoing investigations into that, but the problem was the *games* in question corrupting saves) while connected or even simply have one complete hardware run? Oops, you're banned.

I've still not seen any citing for this claimed evidence. My personal experience seems to discredit the claims being made.

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

That's what people are defending. Also, it utterly f**k over future revenue streams...I don't get why people don't understand /that/.

I understand it perfectly. I also understand that it is MS's right to f**k over their future revenue stream if they so choose. Just as it is the right of the Xbox owner to mod their Xbox if they so choose. Both choices have consequences that each must accept if they choose to exercise said rights.

Cheers,
PKFFW

[DawnFalcon]

Sorry, the changes made to banned Xboxes are well documented now. There are changes. It also sounds like they're using different adverts in Australia to the ones in the UK.

Thing is: They're not f**king over only their own revenue stream, though, they're f**king over the games industry as a whole. It's not in anyone's interest, even Microsoft's, to handle the bannings as they are!

[PKFFW]

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

Sorry, the changes made to banned Xboxes are well documented now. There are changes. It also sounds like they're using different adverts in Australia to the ones in the UK.

Well I've not seen any "well documented cases" and that has not been the experience of my friends. So either they were just really lucky and MS decided, out of the goodness of its heart, not to make any of these supposed changes in these 3 cases or the situation isn't as clear cut as the documentation makes out. Could it be the hacked firmware is at fault? Could it be compatibility issues with new hardware being installed? I don't know. What I do know is 3 people who have been banned(1 of them only 3 months ago) whose Xboxs' still work perfectly normally.

And are you suggesting that MS advertise in the UK that no fee for Xbox live is necessary and that there are no "terms and conditions" and that by merely buying an Xbox you get access to the live service? I find that hard to believe.

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

Thing is: They're not f**king over only their own revenue stream, though, they're f**king over the games industry as a whole. It's not in anyone's interest, even Microsoft's, to handle the bannings as they are!

I'm not sure how this would be affecting the "games industry as a whole"? I'm sure Sony don't see it that way either. The more pissed off Xbox owners there are the more Sonys' market share would likely grow.

Agreed though that MS could be handling the bannings better.

Cheers,
PKFFW

[DawnFalcon]

I suggest you read up on what it actually means to get banned, you can no longer use some media functionality or transfer files between xboxes if they've been on a banned one, or copy games to the hard disk. These are, undenyably, changes related to being banned.

And if Xbox Live and the 360 are advertised as being part of the same service, in the same advert, as the UK adverts suggest? Yes, that creates an expectation of service. This is a mistake on Microsoft UK's part with the current advert run.

Also... how would it not be affecting the games industry? You've just created a situation in where many people will no longer purchase any legitimate xbox games. More, many of them are likely to never purchase legitimate games again, and you've cut them off from the online store and so on so they can't purchase those games if they wanted to.

Sony have been far more willing in general to work with the homebrew community (until the slim), and don't use region locking - these are major factors in the lack of easy PS3 hacks. The talented people who have PS3's are doing homebrew, not brewing hacks!

That is the correct model in future consoles, and Microsoft's policy against hardware and not accounts is precisely the wrong one.

[dmaul1114]

Whine, whine, whine.

If you don't want banned, don't mod your console. If you need to mod it for region lock issues, then just don't buy it and write them that you bought a PS3 because it was region free.

Quit being nerd hackers and modding shit. Vote with your wallet. And if you have to mod it, know the consequences first.

[PKFFW]

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

I suggest you read up on what it actually means to get banned, you can no longer use some media functionality or transfer files between xboxes if they've been on a banned one, or copy games to the hard disk. These are, undenyably, changes related to being banned.

Well again all I can go on is the experience of my three friends who have been banned by MS from using the Xbox live service and all three can transfer files and use all media functionality. I must admit I'm not sure about the copying games to the HD bit but they've never whinged about such a thing so I can only assume that is still available too.

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

And if Xbox Live and the 360 are advertised as being part of the same service, in the same advert, as the UK adverts suggest? Yes, that creates an expectation of service. This is a mistake on Microsoft UK's part with the current advert run.

We have ads over here for exercise equipment all the time. They "create an expectation" that the fat yobbo down the road can look like Arnie by using said equipment for a mere 10 minutes a day!! There is a big difference between "creating an expectation" and false or misleading advertising. So do the adds state that by purchasing an Xbox 360 the consumer gets access to the Xbox live service with it? Or do they "create an expectation" that you do and then have some fine print down the bottom that states there is a fee and that the service is subject to certain terms and conditions or something along those lines?

Further, even if MS is found guilty of false or misleading advertising this would not bestow any rights to access the Xbox live service onto anyone who had purchased an Xbox. Especially not a right to access the service without having to abide by the terms and conditions of said service.

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

Also... how would it not be affecting the games industry? You've just created a situation in where many people will no longer purchase any legitimate xbox games. More, many of them are likely to never purchase legitimate games again, and you've cut them off from the online store and so on so they can't purchase those games if they wanted to.

1: They can purchase legitimate games any time they wish by going to a games shop. So MS is not stopping them from doing that.
2: Approximately 95-99% of people with modded Xboxes have modded them in order to access pirated software. As has been said so often in the past on these boards with regards to ebooks, why try to convert the pirates? They are never going to purchase legitimate games anyway. So why try to bend over backwards to encourage them to come back to the fold and play nice so to speak?

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

Sony have been far more willing in general to work with the homebrew community (until the slim), and don't use region locking - these are major factors in the lack of easy PS3 hacks. The talented people who have PS3's are doing homebrew, not brewing hacks!

Good for Sony. They are choosing to exercise their rights as a business in a way that suits them.

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

That is the correct model in future consoles, and Microsoft's policy against hardware and not accounts is precisely the wrong one.

All in your opinion of course.

Cheers,
PKFFW