Universities say no more Kindles till blind students can use it..... - Page 5

dmaul1114 · 11-12-2009, 06:52 PM

Meh, I can't support that kind of law.

I could get behind one that required to make large print versions of text books, audio books etc. available at the same price.

But as much as I hate text book companies, I'm a strong supporter of copyright law so I don't think schools or other people should be able to make large print copies without the publishers permission.

But it is reasonable to require the companies to put out large print versions etc. to cater to disabled students. At least that way the company still gets money (and too much given the absurd price of textbooks) out of the book sold to the disabled students.

DawnFalcon · 11-12-2009, 07:15 PM

If you give them a choice, the book companies won't do it, which makes commercial sense from their perspective. It's explictly supporting a form of exclusion for disabled people. Also, you seem to be under a misunderstanding. If you're legally blind in the UK, if you legally own a work then you're entitled, without the publishers permission, to aquire a large print version. It's not a free for all, it's an accessability provision.

More... There's no need for the publishers to have to pay the costs of providing, say, a red tinted background book. These things can and are done by specalist companies and volunteers for disabled people.

In the case of the Kindle, assuming they add voice navigation, I'd be fully in favour of a provision in the software for legally blind people to be able to register and to have, via whispernet, the TTS settings for their books turned on regardless of the publisher's settings. (This is not the same as audiobook versions...)

tldr version;

I support Right to Read.

dmaul1114 · 11-12-2009, 07:19 PM

I support that type of stuff. As long as it's the case of a blind person buying (or having someone buy for them) the book and then put it in a format they can use. I see no problem with that and wouldn't support any publishers complaints on that front.

But if it's the school or some company buying one copy of the book, then making large print copies available for multiple blind students etc. I'd be opposed as the publisher should get their cut for each person that gets the book.

DawnFalcon · 11-12-2009, 07:26 PM

Well, you're out of step with UK law there, since Schools and Universities (and a few other organisations, for limited purposes) can make multiple large-print copies, as long as they're for educational use (and they can't be kept after the course is finished).

(here)

I believe the equivalent US law is the "Chafee amendment"

The problem with these laws is they're national-based. Organisations cannot share their accessable libraries across national boundaties (well, a few EU countries can, but that's an exception). That is what the WIPO proposed treaty is about, and it'd dramatically increase the amount of reading material for the blind, especially for non-English books!

dmaul1114 · 11-12-2009, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

Well, you're out of step with UK law there, since Schools and Universities (and a few other organisations, for limited purposes) can make multiple large-print copies, as long as they're for educational use (and they can't be kept after the course is finished).

(here)

It's a mixed bag here--though I'm not sure about laws specific to large print copies for the blind.

The university I work for is actually being sued regarding profs making articles, chapters of books etc. available for students to read for class (i.e. putting them up on the Ulearn class sites for our courses that are only accessible to students registered in the course).

The outcome of the lawsuit will have a big impact on what's fair use for education and what's not.

The general guidelines in the school now are that it's ok to do so if it's factual info, and giving it out won't keep people from buying the source material. i.e. a giving a journal article to students won't prevent subscriptions. Giving a chapter or part of a chapter of a book won't take away book sales--but giving all or most of the book will.

But the school is being sued over those so we'll see what happens. School is fighting that it's fair use, publishers are suing that it's not.

DawnFalcon · 11-12-2009, 07:39 PM

Well, the amount of material which is fair use for copying is well-defined in UK law, and is quite restrictive. Librarians can and do check, as well (they have a duty to) when you photocopy in libraries.

It's an old and settled argument here and disabled access is considered a different issue.

To explain why I feel strongly on this by the way: I'm mildly dyslexic and why it dosn't affect my reading (and my typing is better than most people's), I can understand how it can affect people and when I was at University I used the "disability center" (no need to queue for PC's in the University library) and aquired a number of blind and severely dyslexic friends.

dmaul1114 · 11-12-2009, 08:39 PM

Yeah, we apparently don't have clear definition now.

As far as copying for your own education use--that's fine. Students, faculty (anyone) can go to the library and copy until their hearts content. Librarians don't check on it at all--just have copy machines one every floor of the university library stacks.

It's just gets murkier when it's faculty making copies of things and giving them to their students. At my old university it was gotten around by just making the articles available in the copy room for students to read or copy on their own and putting them in library reserves for undergrads to check out for an hour to read or copy on their own.

My new university got sued for doing more than that, and is fighting it arguing that it's fair use to give chapter, journal articles etc. to students for educational purposes. It will be interesting to see how that plays out.

Daithi · 11-13-2009, 12:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

Daithi - So it's acceptable for there to be a course which requires the Kindle, and which thus requires frequent aid from a sighted person to the blind person to handle the reading which, in the normal course of events, they could handle themselves on a PC?

I do think blind people should be accomodated where possible, however I think it is a little strange to toss out the Kindle simply because it wasn't designed for blind students. Providing the blind student with a brail version of textbooks seems like a reasonable accomodation. Afterall, if you ban the Kindle and go back to paper textbooks then you're still in the exact same position -- blind people still can't read the paper textbook and need to be accomodated with a special version of the book.

On the other topic you mentioned, about 3rd parties having the right to produce versions of books for the blind when the publisher won't do it, well, there I agree with you completely. This is an important law and it is a shame that publishers are trying to get this law removed from an international treaty. We had a pretty lively discussion on this topic a few months back.

BTW, I have a son that is dyslexic, so I know the kind of affect it has on a kid's life.

DawnFalcon · 11-13-2009, 08:34 AM

Yes, the problem was it was a course requirement, Dathi, rather than that it was about ereaders per-se. Of course, this is why I support open hardware platforms, people can and do would build support for TTS into firmware for blind people (I believe there's an android-native TTS interface reader in alpha testing right now, actually).

Nate the great · 11-13-2009, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

Yes, the problem was it was a course requirement, Dathi, rather than that it was about ereaders per-se. Of course, this is why I support open hardware platforms, people can and do would build support for TTS into firmware for blind people (I believe there's an android-native TTS interface reader in alpha testing right now, actually).

Not entirely accurate. Syracuse University, one of the schools mentioned in this story, said that they won't be buying the Kindle for their library because of complaints.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...ryId=120340625

Quote:

Syracuse University's library decided not to purchase any more Kindles after complaints by disability groups. Library spokesperson Pamela McLaughlin explains the text-to-speech function is just about impossible for a blind person to use.

Daithi · 11-13-2009, 11:46 AM

Even if it was a course requirement, I don't see where that makes any difference from what happens now. If a course requirement is for a hardcover textbook, and a blind student takes the course then the blind student gets a brail version of the book. If the school is using the Kindle DX with a required ebook then the blind student gets a brail version. There is no difference.

Now if the school was requiring the blind student to buy a Kindle in addition to the brail book then there would be something to complain about, but that is not what is being argued here.

BenG · 11-13-2009, 11:58 AM

I know our company, which uses university sports team logos on some of our products, had to agree to several conditions about non-discrimination due to race, religion, gender, sexual orientation and disabilities in order to use the logos.

anurag · 11-13-2009, 01:24 PM

If Amazon switched over to ePub, it would also make it easier for them to support DAISY format ebooks, which are marked up with XML (more information here: http://www.daisy.org/about_us/dtbooks.asp).

The Internet Archive converts all their ebooks (1.6 million and counting, all free) to ePub as well as DAISY. I saw a demo of the DAISY reader at one of their events recently and it was very promising.

dmaul1114 · 11-13-2009, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daithi

Even if it was a course requirement, I don't see where that makes any difference from what happens now. If a course requirement is for a hardcover textbook, and a blind student takes the course then the blind student gets a brail version of the book. If the school is using the Kindle DX with a required ebook then the blind student gets a brail version. There is no difference.

Now if the school was requiring the blind student to buy a Kindle in addition to the brail book then there would be something to complain about, but that is not what is being argued here.

The only difference would be if the Kindle version of the book in question was the only version available I guess.

But that's still not much different than using a hardcover book that has no braille version available. The school still has to make a braille or audio version for the student in either case.

DawnFalcon · 11-13-2009, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daithi

Even if it was a course requirement, I don't see where that makes any difference from what happens now. If a course requirement is for a hardcover textbook, and a blind student takes the course then the blind student gets a brail version of the book. If the school is using the Kindle DX with a required ebook then the blind student gets a brail version. There is no difference.

? No, the problem was that the only version of the course material avaliable was on the Kindles.

Most academic institutions are set up to provide all course material in large print/braile/audio formats if necessary, it's just not really possible for there to be unaided reading on the K2 right now, so it breaks that chain. Their actions in not using them for courses are quite reasonable.

11-12-2009, 07:26 PM	#64
DawnFalcon Banned Posts: 2,094 Karma: 2682 Join Date: Aug 2009 Device: N/A	Well, you're out of step with UK law there, since Schools and Universities (and a few other organisations, for limited purposes) can make multiple large-print copies, as long as they're for educational use (and they can't be kept after the course is finished). (here) I believe the equivalent US law is the "Chafee amendment" The problem with these laws is they're national-based. Organisations cannot share their accessable libraries across national boundaties (well, a few EU countries can, but that's an exception). That is what the WIPO proposed treaty is about, and it'd dramatically increase the amount of reading material for the blind, especially for non-English books! Last edited by DawnFalcon; 11-12-2009 at 07:34 PM.

11-12-2009, 07:39 PM	#66
DawnFalcon Banned Posts: 2,094 Karma: 2682 Join Date: Aug 2009 Device: N/A	Well, the amount of material which is fair use for copying is well-defined in UK law, and is quite restrictive. Librarians can and do check, as well (they have a duty to) when you photocopy in libraries. It's an old and settled argument here and disabled access is considered a different issue. To explain why I feel strongly on this by the way: I'm mildly dyslexic and why it dosn't affect my reading (and my typing is better than most people's), I can understand how it can affect people and when I was at University I used the "disability center" (no need to queue for PC's in the University library) and aquired a number of blind and severely dyslexic friends. Last edited by DawnFalcon; 11-12-2009 at 07:47 PM.

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11-12-2009, 06:52 PM	#61
dmaul1114 Wizard Posts: 2,300 Karma: 1121709 Join Date: Feb 2009 Device: Amazon Kindle 1	Meh, I can't support that kind of law. I could get behind one that required to make large print versions of text books, audio books etc. available at the same price. But as much as I hate text book companies, I'm a strong supporter of copyright law so I don't think schools or other people should be able to make large print copies without the publishers permission. But it is reasonable to require the companies to put out large print versions etc. to cater to disabled students. At least that way the company still gets money (and too much given the absurd price of textbooks) out of the book sold to the disabled students.

11-12-2009, 07:15 PM	#62
DawnFalcon Banned Posts: 2,094 Karma: 2682 Join Date: Aug 2009 Device: N/A	If you give them a choice, the book companies won't do it, which makes commercial sense from their perspective. It's explictly supporting a form of exclusion for disabled people. Also, you seem to be under a misunderstanding. If you're legally blind in the UK, if you legally own a work then you're entitled, without the publishers permission, to aquire a large print version. It's not a free for all, it's an accessability provision. More... There's no need for the publishers to have to pay the costs of providing, say, a red tinted background book. These things can and are done by specalist companies and volunteers for disabled people. In the case of the Kindle, assuming they add voice navigation, I'd be fully in favour of a provision in the software for legally blind people to be able to register and to have, via whispernet, the TTS settings for their books turned on regardless of the publisher's settings. (This is not the same as audiobook versions...) tldr version; I support Right to Read.

11-12-2009, 07:19 PM	#63
dmaul1114 Wizard Posts: 2,300 Karma: 1121709 Join Date: Feb 2009 Device: Amazon Kindle 1	I support that type of stuff. As long as it's the case of a blind person buying (or having someone buy for them) the book and then put it in a format they can use. I see no problem with that and wouldn't support any publishers complaints on that front. But if it's the school or some company buying one copy of the book, then making large print copies available for multiple blind students etc. I'd be opposed as the publisher should get their cut for each person that gets the book.

11-12-2009, 08:39 PM	#67
dmaul1114 Wizard Posts: 2,300 Karma: 1121709 Join Date: Feb 2009 Device: Amazon Kindle 1	Yeah, we apparently don't have clear definition now. As far as copying for your own education use--that's fine. Students, faculty (anyone) can go to the library and copy until their hearts content. Librarians don't check on it at all--just have copy machines one every floor of the university library stacks. It's just gets murkier when it's faculty making copies of things and giving them to their students. At my old university it was gotten around by just making the articles available in the copy room for students to read or copy on their own and putting them in library reserves for undergrads to check out for an hour to read or copy on their own. My new university got sued for doing more than that, and is fighting it arguing that it's fair use to give chapter, journal articles etc. to students for educational purposes. It will be interesting to see how that plays out.

11-13-2009, 08:34 AM	#69
DawnFalcon Banned Posts: 2,094 Karma: 2682 Join Date: Aug 2009 Device: N/A	Yes, the problem was it was a course requirement, Dathi, rather than that it was about ereaders per-se. Of course, this is why I support open hardware platforms, people can and do would build support for TTS into firmware for blind people (I believe there's an android-native TTS interface reader in alpha testing right now, actually).

11-13-2009, 11:46 AM	#71
Daithi Publishers are evil! Posts: 2,418 Karma: 36205264 Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Rhode Island Device: Various Kindles	Even if it was a course requirement, I don't see where that makes any difference from what happens now. If a course requirement is for a hardcover textbook, and a blind student takes the course then the blind student gets a brail version of the book. If the school is using the Kindle DX with a required ebook then the blind student gets a brail version. There is no difference. Now if the school was requiring the blind student to buy a Kindle in addition to the brail book then there would be something to complain about, but that is not what is being argued here.

11-13-2009, 11:58 AM	#72
BenG Home Guard Posts: 4,730 Karma: 86721650 Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Alpha Ralpha Boulevard Device: Kindle Oasis 3G, iPhone 6	I know our company, which uses university sports team logos on some of our products, had to agree to several conditions about non-discrimination due to race, religion, gender, sexual orientation and disabilities in order to use the logos.

11-13-2009, 01:24 PM	#73
anurag Addict Posts: 236 Karma: 4066 Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: California Device: Kindle 1 and DX, iPhone	If Amazon switched over to ePub, it would also make it easier for them to support DAISY format ebooks, which are marked up with XML (more information here: http://www.daisy.org/about_us/dtbooks.asp). The Internet Archive converts all their ebooks (1.6 million and counting, all free) to ePub as well as DAISY. I saw a demo of the DAISY reader at one of their events recently and it was very promising.

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