Microsoft and the Xbox

[dmaul1114]

Originally Posted by Shaggy

So companies should be allowed to put anything they want into a user agreement? If MS wanted to say that purchasing an Xbox meant that you agreed to give them your first born child, you'd be OK with forcing people to give their children up as long as it was clearly stated in the user agreement?

Now, now. No need to go into silly hyperbole.

I think they can put what ever limitations on the products usage in their agreement that they want in terms of what things void the warranty, what can get you banned from that companies online network, what the DRM limits are on the the digital content you can buy through that product etc.

It's their product and they can define those policies largely as they see fit IMO. And consumers can choose to buy the product or not based on those policies.

[PKFFW]

Originally Posted by Shaggy

There is if MS is taking their money for access to that service.

No, there is if both parties are abiding by the terms of the agreement. By modding the Xbox one party is not abiding by the terms of the agreement and therefore all rights received under that agreement are forfeit.

Cheers,
PKFFW

[dmaul1114]

Originally Posted by PKFFW

No, there is if both parties are abiding by the terms of the agreement. By modding the Xbox one party is not abiding by the terms of the agreement and therefore all rights received under that agreement are forfeit.

Yep, they have no obligation to refund that money as every member agreed to abide by the terms of service when signing up for X-box live.

By breaking those terms, they broke the contract. It would be a nice gesture to refund the remaining time on the Live subscription, but they have no obligation to do so when the user broke the contract by violating the terms of service.

[PKFFW]

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

You don't lose sleep by the fact they're catching a pretty high percentage of legitimate users with this?

Cite? And what is your definition of a "pretty high percentage of legitimate users"?

To me a "pretty high percentage" would have to be at the very least over 10-15% I think there might be a bit more bad publicity going around if over 10-15% of Xbox live users were being banned whilst not having modded their Xbox's!

Originally Posted by DawFalcon

kay... and all that they're doing with the ban is absolutely ensuring that those customers, in general, will never play a legit game again on that console.

A "you're naughty, reverse the hack and you can come back"? Well, they might buy legit games for it again.

Agreed they are most likely ensuring those users never come back to Xbox live again or buy another legitimate game. However, for the overwhelmingly vast majority of those users they were never going to buy a legitimate game again anyway.

Cheers,
PKFFW

[Shaggy]

Originally Posted by dmaul1114

Now, now. No need to go into silly hyperbole.

Actually, I'm not. Those sorts of things are exactly what the government granted consumer rights surrounding terms and conditions in user agreements are meant to address. Agreeing to give up your legal rights, including signing yourself into slavery, are specific examples that those consumer rights were originally meant to protect.

Companies are not supposed to be allowed to place restrictions on what you do with a physical product after you own it. They are also specifically not allowed to put things in usage agreements that violate existing law or that require a consumer to give up their rights.

Without those consumer rights that you claim the government should stay out of, companies would be able to do exactly that.

I think they can put what ever limitations on the products usage in their agreement that they want in terms of what things void the warranty, what can get you banned from that companies online network, what the DRM limits are on the the digital content you can buy through that product etc.

It's their product and they can define those policies largely as they see fit IMO. And consumers can choose to buy the product or not based on those policies.

Luckily, the law disagrees with you.

[PKFFW]

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

And there are these little things like consumer rights to consider, which Australia has when it's explicitly authorised modding because of region locking. You can't handwave them away.

MS is not handwaving away the consumer rights of any Australian. We all still retain the right to mod our Xbox's if we so choose.

What MS does have the right to do, is ban access to Xbox live if the Xbox owner breaks the terms of the agreement under which Xbox live operates.

Remember, with rights generally come responsibilities. You have the right to mod your Xbox and you have the responsibility to accept the consequences of doing so.

Cheers,
PKFFW

[dmaul1114]

Originally Posted by Shaggy

Actually, I'm not. Those sorts of things are exactly what the government granted consumer rights surrounding terms and conditions in user agreements are meant to address. Agreeing to give up your legal rights, including signing yourself into slavery, are specific examples that those consumer rights were originally meant to protect.

Companies are not supposed to be allowed to place restrictions on what you do with a physical product after you own it. They are also specifically not allowed to put things in usage agreements that violate existing law or that require a consumer to give up their rights.

Without those consumer rights that you claim the government should stay out of, companies would be able to do exactly that.



Luckily, the law disagrees with you.

I'm not saying there are no instances where the government shouldn't step in and regulate things in user agreements.

I'm just saying it should be a last resort for extreme cases. And minor stuff like not being able to mod a console and keep the warranty or play on that companies online network don't fit that bill. Nor do DRM schemes tying content to one companies device etc.

I'm far from a conservative, but I'm not a socialist who wants the government regulating the markets excessively either. Companies can design their own policies with warranties, access to THEIR online network and so forth and should be free to do so unless some really extreme violation of consumer's rights taking place.

Which is absolutely not the case with the X-box modding. The consequences for modding a console are clearly stated and reasonable. Sadly a few people who haven't modded consoles have gotten caught in the net, but most of the bitching is just from nerdy hackers who like modding stuff and pirates who mod to steal games--which is why such policies in user agreements are needed in the first place.

[Shaggy]

Originally Posted by PKFFW

What MS does have the right to do, is ban access to Xbox live if the Xbox owner breaks the terms of the agreement under which Xbox live operates.

Is that all they're doing though? I don't know if it's accurate, but I saw this in another discussion...

When an Xbox 360 console is banned, there are offline features that are disabled too - the most significant are playing games from the hard disk, and using the console as a Windows Media Center Extender. Once banned, the console will corrupt the saves on memory cards and hard disks that it comes into contact with so that they can't be used on a non-banned console without re-downloading them from Live.

If that's true, then they're definitely taking away a lot more rights than are probably spelled out in the terms of agreement. I doubt users agreed to the above terms as consequences for modding.

[Shaggy]

Originally Posted by dmaul1114

And minor stuff like not being able to mod a console and keep the warranty or play on that companies online network don't fit that bill.

I would agree, but that's a far different statement than your previous one.

Which is absolutely not the case with the X-box modding. The consequences for modding a console are clearly stated and reasonable.

Are you sure about that? It sounds to me like there are a lot more side effects caused by being banned that don't just effect your ability to use the LIVE service (see my previous post).

[dmaul1114]

That's not a far different statement--see my response to your hyperbole. I've said all along I think companies--within reason--can put restrictions on the usage of their products and enforce them by voiding warranties, banning access to the companies online network etc.

To the second point, honestly, I think the other side effects are mostly myth or isolated incidents. Maybe not the media center extender as perhaps being banned from Live disables all the online access since that media center is tied to your Live Account/ Windows Live ID, so that might not work if you can't log into live.

The save corruption etc. I've not heard much about so those may just be some isolated glitches. Or stuff targeted at people who had used mods to cheat, as a way to delete saved games that enabled cheating etc.

[PKFFW]

Originally Posted by Shaggy

Is that all they're doing though? I don't know if it's accurate, but I saw this in another discussion...



If that's true, then they're definitely taking away a lot more rights than are probably spelled out in the terms of agreement. I doubt users agreed to the above terms as consequences for modding.

I don't know if that particular case is true or not however I have had 3 friends banned from Xbox live for modding their Xbox's and in all 3 cases the Xbox worked normally in all other respects after the banning. Including all saved games, even games that had been downloaded from Xbox live rather than being bought in a store.

Cheers,
PKFFW

[dmaul1114]

Originally Posted by PKFFW

I don't know if that particular case is true or not however I have had 3 friends banned from Xbox live for modding their Xbox's and in all 3 cases the Xbox worked normally in all other respects after the banning. Including all saved games, even games that had been downloaded from Xbox live rather than being bought in a store.

Cheers,
PKFFW

That's been my experience with people who've gotten banned as well.

[DawnFalcon]

Originally Posted by PKFFW

1: They are reasonably accurate, in that the actual number of people improperly banned is very very small.

Not according to the data I'm getting for this round of bannings. (And it's allways had a ~5% error rate)

[Shaggy]

Originally Posted by PKFFW

I don't know if that particular case is true or not however I have had 3 friends banned from Xbox live for modding their Xbox's and in all 3 cases the Xbox worked normally in all other respects after the banning. Including all saved games, even games that had been downloaded from Xbox live rather than being bought in a store.

Yeah, I don't know if it's true or not either. Just passing on what I saw for the sake of discussion.

[PKFFW]

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

Not according to the data I'm getting for this round of bannings. (And it's allways had a ~5% error rate)

Out of curiosity what kind of data are you getting and where are you getting it from? What % of users are being banned when they have not modded their Xbox?

Not that anyone should be banned at all if they have not broken the terms of agreement but mistakes will always happen. Just like the person who mods their Xbox purely for legal, legitimate and noble reasons may find a mistake has been made that allows them to play pirated games.

Cheers,
PKFFW