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Old 11-11-2009, 07:03 AM   #106
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I suppose I should apologise for having brought up Heinlein, since he seems to have unduly dominated much of this thread.

I have one thing to say though: any author who voices extremist views and then needs to be defended by the claims that they have to be viewed 'in context' or that 'they're just the views of the characters' has failed. Either they have failed through over-subtlety and obscurantism or they have failed through a lack of the courage of their convictions, however vile those might be. Heinlein's failure may well have been a mix of both of these, and I think the extents to which people have to go to defend him demonstrates how confused and disordered his thinking was.

I see someone has mentioned The Female Man as another book that was designed to shock. Whatever you may think of Russ, it would be absurd to claim that Russ didn't really mean what she said in that work, and doing so would be an attempt to strip the book of its power. When it comes to Heinlein, though, people start waving their hands around and having to explain, which simply demonstrates the real problem.
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Old 11-11-2009, 07:56 AM   #107
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And another thing these are all works of FICTION.

Anything is possible in fiction,

the only question is whether it is internally consistent or not.
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Old 11-11-2009, 10:02 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by charleski View Post
I suppose I should apologise for having brought up Heinlein, since he seems to have unduly dominated much of this thread.

I have one thing to say though: any author who voices extremist views and then needs to be defended by the claims that they have to be viewed 'in context' or that 'they're just the views of the characters' has failed. Either they have failed through over-subtlety and obscurantism or they have failed through a lack of the courage of their convictions, however vile those might be. Heinlein's failure may well have been a mix of both of these, and I think the extents to which people have to go to defend him demonstrates how confused and disordered his thinking was.

I see someone has mentioned The Female Man as another book that was designed to shock. Whatever you may think of Russ, it would be absurd to claim that Russ didn't really mean what she said in that work, and doing so would be an attempt to strip the book of its power. When it comes to Heinlein, though, people start waving their hands around and having to explain, which simply demonstrates the real problem.

Joanna Russ is a feminist with an "Agenda," - someone "On a Mission" - which is to explode male patricarchcal dominance in today's (or yesterday's) society. She uses gendered role reversal to shock, entreat, and "Teach a Lesson" to her reader - presumably, a male-dominated audience. In her World cosmology, heterosexuals are oppressed.

I personally find her novels preachy and didactic in tone and message. Her short stories are sometimes brilliant (when she remembers to tell a story).

Some would argue she hasn't written much of merit in 25 years; others would argue the time more likely to be 50 years. (She started publishing SF in 1959.)

I find the bulk of her writings anchored in a crude intellectualism, without the softening compassion that is needed for Great Literature.


Don

ADDED: Now, back to Zombies and playfully recumbant "Dead Things"

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Old 11-11-2009, 12:05 PM   #109
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I suppose I should apologise for having brought up Heinlein, since he seems to have unduly dominated much of this thread.
No, no please don't apologize! This is absolutely the liveliest discussion I've ever had on mobileread!

I haven't exercised my literary geekness since taking on the Christianity thread on theleakycauldron.com after HP book 7.

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I have one thing to say though: any author who voices extremist views and then needs to be defended by the claims that they have to be viewed 'in context' or that 'they're just the views of the characters' has failed. Either they have failed through over-subtlety and obscurantism or they have failed through a lack of the courage of their convictions, however vile those might be. Heinlein's failure may well have been a mix of both of these, and I think the extents to which people have to go to defend him demonstrates how confused and disordered his thinking was.
I liked "scumbag" but I'm flexible. "Confused and disordered" works too!

-Pie (aka the-guy-who-is-REALLY-banned-now!)
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Old 11-11-2009, 12:15 PM   #110
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I find the bulk of her writings anchored in a crude intellectualism, without the softening compassion that is needed for Great Literature.
I met Joanna, back when. She was intense and committed.

I'm not sure whether I'd consider her intellectualism "crude", but she was coming from a position and had an agenda.

I'd call _Picnic On Paradise_ and some of her short fiction worth reading. I found _The Female Man_ worth reading, too, but I knew what I was in for going in, and made the required allowances.

From where I sit, Joanna displays a rather common failing. She's operating from a theoretical premise, and everything must somehow be made to fit the theory or simply discarded. Questioning of the theory largely doesn't happen.
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Old 11-11-2009, 12:25 PM   #111
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I liked "scumbag" but I'm flexible. "Confused and disordered" works too!

-Pie (aka the-guy-who-is-REALLY-banned-now!)
No, merely laughed at.
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Old 11-11-2009, 01:01 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by charleski View Post
I have one thing to say though: any author who voices extremist views and then needs to be defended by the claims that they have to be viewed 'in context' or that 'they're just the views of the characters' has failed. Either they have failed through over-subtlety and obscurantism or they have failed through a lack of the courage of their convictions, however vile those might be. Heinlein's failure may well have been a mix of both of these, and I think the extents to which people have to go to defend him demonstrates how confused and disordered his thinking was.
I think what you're running into is a fairly sizable group of people who have read most of what Heinlein published as well as plenty of analysis of what he published. A single quote from a character in one of his books that contradicts many of the statements that other characters in his work say (and do) shouldn't be considered representative of his beliefs.

After all, if I quoted you as saying "...I'd be turning myself into the police as a lunatic who needs to be locked up for my own good" and suggested that we not read your words because you've admitted you're a lunatic, you would rightfully insist that your comments be read in context. YOU haven't failed to communicate, but I have failed to represent your statement accurately.

More people have read and been influenced by Heinlein than have even heard of Joanna Russ (I hadn't heard of her before this thread, for example). You're bound to get much more discussion on his work than hers.
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Old 11-12-2009, 01:32 AM   #113
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re: RAH and Rape

Coming into this a little late, I have scanned through the replies on this and I apologize if this was brought up and I completely missed it somehow. Also not trying to beat a dead horse here.

As mentioned, RAH was a firm believer in personal responsibility, accepting consequences, etc. With that in mind...

RAH's statement in the quote about rape is taken completely wrong. He didn't mean it in a 'she was asking for it' type of way at all. Bringing his personal philosophy into the context of it (which you do have to do if you're going to attribute that statement as part of his personal belief) the statement means that if a woman is truly afraid of rape, or doesn't want to be raped, she will have learned how to fight off/stop a would be rapist. It is partly her fault because she has never taken the time to learn self defense, not because of the way she is dressed or acting.

Another way of presenting the same idea:

If you don't know how to defend yourself and walk around flashing wads of cash, it's partially your fault if you get mugged.

RAH chooses to go to the extreme position to present the same idea, this is something he does a lot and it's always shocking on the face of it, until you examine it.

Whatever you do, don't read Farnham's Freehold. LOL!
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Old 11-12-2009, 06:33 AM   #114
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....

Whatever you do, don't read Farnham's Freehold. LOL!
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Old 11-12-2009, 07:54 AM   #115
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Whatever you do, don't read Farnham's Freehold. LOL!
That was on my list to read, I think I'll move it up the list.
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Old 11-12-2009, 08:01 AM   #116
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I think what you're running into is a fairly sizable group of people who have read most of what Heinlein published as well as plenty of analysis of what he published. A single quote from a character in one of his books that contradicts many of the statements that other characters in his work say (and do) shouldn't be considered representative of his beliefs.
So, you say the rape quote (a throwaway line from one of the sympathetic characters in SiaSL) contradicts his other writing, and Renaldo says, "RAH chooses to go to the extreme position to present the same idea, this is something he does a lot and it's always shocking on the face of it, until you examine it."

Which is it? Did Heinlein expect us to reject the idea and the character voicing it (unlikely in the context), or was he propounding a larger theory of personal responsibility and merely using this idea for its shock value? I suggest it might be an idea for Heinlein apologists to work out a single story and stick to it .

Frankly, I don't think Heinlein had the faintest clue what he was talking about, and didn't really care. Neither apology works in this case. If you look at the quote in context it's Jill telling Mike that she can look after herself in most cases and is part of a section describing Jill's sexual awakening as a 'showgirl'. A few paragraphs following this utterance Jill practices lewd poses for a photograph. Wow, man, that's deep....

It's the sort of adolescent wish-fulfilment I'd expect from a 14year-old boy with learning disabilities.

Quote:
After all, if I quoted you as saying "...I'd be turning myself into the police as a lunatic who needs to be locked up for my own good" and suggested that we not read your words because you've admitted you're a lunatic, you would rightfully insist that your comments be read in context. YOU haven't failed to communicate, but I have failed to represent your statement accurately.
I think it's reasonable for an author to expect readers to understand the concept of the subjunctive tense - that's basic grammar...

I'm not saying authors shouldn't employ satire or sarcasm either. But someone who can't write satire in a way that makes it reasonably clear what they're doing should steer clear of it.
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Old 11-12-2009, 12:35 PM   #117
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the statement means that if a woman is truly afraid of rape, or doesn't want to be raped, she will have learned how to fight off/stop a would be rapist. It is partly her fault because she has never taken the time to learn self defense, not because of the way she is dressed or acting.

Another way of presenting the same idea:

If you don't know how to defend yourself and walk around flashing wads of cash, it's partially your fault if you get mugged.
And yet...

No jury is expected to accept "well, jeeze, he was wearing a Rolex in *that* part of town... he should've *known* what was going to happen! You can't put his mugger in jail just for doing what seemed natural at the time! Obviously, he *wanted* to be mugged--at least subconsciously--or he wouldn't have been there in the first place!"

The way public opinion and our legal system deals with the "asking for it"/"must not've minded" defense in other crimes makes it clear that rape is indeed blaming the victim.

Partly her fault for not having learned self-defense... hmm, how much self-defense do you think teenage girls should learn before they start dating? Should they really be going to high-school dances with the thought, "and THIS is how I castrate a guy if he gets too close to me?"

I've got a 14-year-old daughter; how much knife-work should I teach her before I consider allowing her to date?
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Old 11-12-2009, 12:39 PM   #118
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Guys, please, can we just drop this.
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Old 11-12-2009, 01:59 PM   #119
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Guys, please, can we just drop this.
Or start another thread for it?
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Old 11-12-2009, 02:56 PM   #120
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Dear Contributors:

Let's please move back toward the central issue of SF books and authors who annoy us.

It's strikes me that lately we have been focusing on some peripheral issues.


Don (Moderator)

Last edited by Dr. Drib; 11-12-2009 at 02:58 PM.
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