Operation E-book Drop: For the Troops

[CallOfCth'reader]

Originally Posted by ardeegee

Orwell. Google is your friend.

Wilfred Owen was the one who said "Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori" (well, not exactly the first.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timelin...ic_deployments

Yup, found it on a quotes website.

Another from Orwell: "If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear."

[Gunnerp245]

Wrestle with a pig and one gets dirty and the pig likes it...

[Patricia]

Re Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori

Actually Horace (Quintus Horatius Flaccus) said it first, in one of his Odes (III, ii, 13). He meant it seriously.

Yes, it is the title of one of Wilfrid Owen's poems. But it is ironic. He calls the phrase, "the old lie." Here's the poem:

Dulce et decorum est

Bent double, like old beggars under sacks,
Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge,
Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs
And towards our distant rest began to trudge.
Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots
But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind;
Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots
Of tired, outstripped Five-Nines that dropped behind.

Gas! Gas! Quick, boys!---An ecstasy of fumbling,
Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time;
But someone still was yelling out and stumbling,
And flound'ring like a man in fire or lime...
Dim, through the misty panes and thick green light,
As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.

In all my dreams, before my helpless sight,
He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.

If in some smothering dreams you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil's sick of sin;
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,---
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori

.

Tomorrow is Armistice Day in the UK.

[desertgrandma]

Originally Posted by bjrnfrdnnd

I am really interested to learn the exact circumstances: how dearly he wanted to leave the army, why the army didn't want to let him go, what the regulations are. I am sure, many informations concerning all this will turn up in the aftermath of this catastrophe.

The "exact circumstances" don't mean a rats ass. It doesn't matter if he didn't want to go. It doesn't matter if he had tried to leave the service.

He swore allegiance to this country, and he betrayed his fellow servicement yelling "Allah Akhbar" before doing so.

No amount of whitewashing, cowardly political correctness by anyone, or excuses from his family will ever erase his disgrace.

Ever.

[MovieBird]

Originally Posted by luqmaninbmore

Why should we be trying to comfort people who willingly participated in act of unprovoked aggression against another country (i.e. Iraq)? Unless of course you want to send them copies of "On the Duties of. Civil Disobedience" or Haldeman's "Forever War." Or maybe "Slaughter-House Five."

If you pay taxes, you support the war by this same reasoning. Hell, you're more culpable by financing this aggression than those in the armed forces. Remember, the majority do not serve on the front lines.

[alecE]

1. I am deeply opposed to the UK government's military involvements in Afghanistan and Iraq;
2. It does not follow though that I should denigrate the military personnel who are serving in those theatres.
3. The proper target for my criticism is the UK government, not individuals who run the risk of being maimed or killed.
4. Like it or not, armed forces are necessary. Sometimes politicians will mis-direct them. Criticise the government, support the military and work to bring them home, alive.

"...For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' 'Chuck him out, the brute!'
But it's 'Saviour of 'is country' when the guns begin to shoot..."
- Rudyard Kipling, 'Tommy'

[daffy4u]

Wow! This thread took a turn.

[kindlekitten]

Originally Posted by bjrnfrdnnd

That is an interesting thought. I suppose this is an argument that explains why so many people of lower economic power join the army; in my opinion, it cannot be a moral argument at all. If implicitely states that these persons, by joining the army, hope to better their economic situation at the expense of possible innocent victims (collateral damage). I sincerely hope that most people joining the army, aside from economic motivations, do also think that the army they join is serving a greater good; and if they find that it is not doing so, they should leave the army in spite of the economic consequences. Therefore, I do think that soldiers are responsible for the wars they are leading, and should always be able to defend any given war on a moral basis.

just to clear things up...

I'm a vet... my Dad was a very successful attorney at the time of my enlistment, no cash flow problems, and I had several scholarship offers.

my estranged spousal unit is a vet, his folks are still doing quite well even in these depressed financial times. he also had numerous college oppourtuniteis

(in fact we met in college after our initial enlistments were up)

my niece is a soldier. her mother is a very successful real estate agent and her father owns his own industrial cran business. she left college to join the army after 9/11.

my brother in law is a naval aviator, obviously went to college. his father retired from one of the top athletic equipment supply companies in the world. Executive V.P.

my son in law is a submariner. lefft college to join the Navy post 9/11.

my son was a SEAL. he never wanted to be anything but a SEAL or a RANGER. his father could endow a few scholarship programs

Originally Posted by luqmaninbmore

No, we do not. I sleep peacefully in bed because of my faith in God.

and it is my, my sisters and brothers and sons and daughters, blood, sweat and tears and willingness to step up to the duty that gives you the rights and peace to be able to say that and sleep peacefully.



IT HAS SERVED US WELL, THIS MYTH OF CHRIST!
Pope Leo X, 16th century

insert the name of any deity you like... it's all the same

[desertgrandma]

Originally Posted by kindlekitten

just to clear things up...

I'm a vet... my Dad was a very successful attorney at the time of my enlistment, no cash flow problems, and I had several scholarship offers.

my estranged spousal unit is a vet, his folks are still doing quite well even in these depressed financial times. he also had numerous college oppourtuniteis

(in fact we met in college after our initial enlistments were up)

my niece is a soldier. her mother is a very successful real estate agent and her father owns his own industrial cran business. she left college to join the army after 9/11.

my brother in law is a naval aviator, obviously went to college. his father retired from one of the top athletic equipment supply companies in the world. Executive V.P.

my son in law is a submariner. lefft college to join the Navy post 9/11.

my son was a SEAL. he never wanted to be anything but a SEAL or a RANGER. his father could endow a few scholarship programs




and it is my, my sisters and brothers and sons and daughters, blood, sweat and tears and willingness to step up to the duty that gives you the rights and peace to be able to say that and sleep peacefully.



IT HAS SERVED US WELL, THIS MYTH OF CHRIST!
Pope Leo X, 16th century

insert the name of any deity you like... it's all the same

KK.......God bless you, you family, and especially your sons and thank you all for your service to this country.

[ShortNCuddlyAm]

Originally Posted by alecE

1. I am deeply opposed to the UK government's military involvements in Afghanistan and Iraq;
2. It does not follow though that I should denigrate the military personnel who are serving in those theatres.
3. The proper target for my criticism is the UK government, not individuals who run the risk of being maimed or killed.
4. Like it or not, armed forces are necessary. Sometimes politicians will mis-direct them. Criticise the government, support the military and work to bring them home, alive.

"...For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' 'Chuck him out, the brute!'
But it's 'Saviour of 'is country' when the guns begin to shoot..."
- Rudyard Kipling, 'Tommy'

(with the extra t)

My gripe is not with the armed forces, past or present - they have a tough job and generally have my respect, my gripe is with the govts who sometimes get them into messes that maybe we should not have been involved in.

[DawnFalcon]

Originally Posted by daffy4u

Wow! This thread took a turn.

And nobody's commented on my economic argument *shrugs*

(I'd add I also oppose a lot of the price gourging which happens to both troops and civilians in warzones)

[snape]

If anyone thinks the troops are personally culpable for the missions, actions or other activities carried out by the US military, I'd strongly suggest you walk up to one and tell them you think they're a piece of crap for serving our country. Do it loudly, in a busy public place, preferably on Veterans' Day - hey, it's this coming Wednesday, so you won't have long to wait. And see if you can position yourself in front of a security camera, so the rest of us can watch your much-deserved butt-kicking on the news.

And then, just for giggles, why don't you go to a much more progressive and responsible country that hasn't bothered anyone in a while (um, North Korea, I'm looking at you), and try it again.

Let me know how that works out for you.

[eGeezer]

Originally Posted by snape

If anyone thinks the troops are personally culpable for the missions, actions or other activities carried out by the US military, I'd strongly suggest you walk up to one and tell them you think they're a piece of crap for serving our country. Do it loudly, in a busy public place, preferably on Veterans' Day - hey, it's this coming Wednesday, so you won't have long to wait. And see if you can position yourself in front of a security camera, so the rest of us can watch your much-deserved butt-kicking on the news.

This would "solve" or "prove" about as much as an African American walking up to a White Supremist and telling him to his face that he is prejudice. Your words don't have to be incorrect to find yourself in the hospital, or worse.

In the U.S. everyone has a right to their opinions as guaranteed in our Constitution. The Constitution doesn't say they have to be right. It also doesn't say that just because you can beat someone up means you are more right than they are.

I believe there is another quote useful to this widely-divergent thread: "I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend unto death your right to say it."

I know it was Voltaire. Don't know if I got it perfectly correct.

[snape]

Originally Posted by eGeezer

This would "solve" or "prove" about as much as an African American walking up to a White Supremist and telling him to his face that he is prejudice. Your words don't have to be incorrect to find yourself in the hospital, or worse.

In the U.S. everyone has a right to their opinions as guaranteed in our Constitution. The Constitution doesn't say they have to be right. It also doesn't say that just because you can beat someone up means you are more right than they are.

I believe there is another quote useful to this widely-divergent thread: "I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend unto death your right to say it."

I know it was Voltaire. Don't know if I got it perfectly correct.

I completely support the right to speak your mind, regardless of whether or not I agree with what's said. I'm simply suggesting that folks grow a spine and take their gripes straight to their target, rather than sitting safely behind their computer keyboards. Our soldiers back up their support of our country with their lives. I wonder if those with anti-soldier sentiments have the same courage.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by snape

If anyone thinks the troops are personally culpable for the missions, actions or other activities carried out by the US military, I'd strongly suggest you walk up to one and tell them you think they're a piece of crap for serving our country. Do it loudly, in a busy public place, preferably on Veterans' Day - hey, it's this coming Wednesday, so you won't have long to wait. And see if you can position yourself in front of a security camera, so the rest of us can watch your much-deserved butt-kicking on the news.

It doesn't really say much for the "right of free speech" in your country if someone cannot express an unpopular opinion without being physically assaulted as a consequence, does it? It's unpopular opinions that people need to know that they can express without the risk of assault, prosecution, or other consequences. Popular opinions don't need protection.

If what you say is actually true, then I'd be deeply concerned about what rights a person actually has to free speech in your country.