Unutterably Silly So what are you doing RIGHT NOW?

[devilsadvocate]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

Er, how many needed their computer to be smarter than they were to function?
______
Dennis

Don't make me answer that.

Seriously though, There's really no single OS that's right for everyone, and there never will be. If you try, you get...Windows. As far as I'm concerned, we need to get back to the realization that a computer is just a very fast, very dumb machine. That CPU is just a pile of transistors. There are millions of them, and they're microscopic, but transistors all the same. A transistor is litte more than a light-switch and I submit that if you can be outwitted by a light-switch, you have bigger fish to fry than which OS to run. I'm not saying everyone should go to a big-league university and spend thousands on IT-related education, you don't have to be a genius to work on/understand computers (YES, even Linux), but if one goes driving, one should know how to change a flat tire.

[Greg Anos]

Zelda, if you want to try using a Linux machine, you might try one of the small nettops and a KMV (keyboard, mouse, and video) switch. The aspire revo that giving me fits in windows will load Linux Mint happily. It's only 19 X 19 X 3.5 cms all up. A good KMV will let you swap from one machine to another just by toggling a key... (I've used one for years...)

[devilsadvocate]

Originally Posted by pilotbob

Well, a lot of people say they are really expensive... but if you compare them to truly equivalent commodity machines like Dell and HP they are pretty similar.

You are absolutely correct. Apple uses most of the same off-the-shelf parts as other OEM vendors.

Originally Posted by pilotbob

For example, check out this article that compares the monitor on the new 27inch iMac to a comparable Dell monitor only. The Dell monitor is about the same prices as the whole iMac...

Yes, Apple doesn't do low end.

Neither does Dell. While I'm no fan of theirs, their monitors (and keyboards) are top-notch, however.

Originally Posted by pilotbob

Of course, if you are home building you can blow it away in price. Of course, if you are building it yourself you can by Hackintosh friendly parts.

BOb

Been there, done that. It works on mine but the process isn't for the faint-hearted. The Apple EULA says that you can only install one copy of the OS and it must be on Apple-branded product. The general formula is,

1. Buy a Shuttle; same parts as an iMac
2. Buy a monitor of your choice
3. Buy a retail copy of OSX
4. Patch OSX. Yes, it's legal to do so; most of OSX (i.e. the parts that need patching) is open-source and covered under either the BSD license or GNU GPL v2.
5. Put an Apple logo somewhere on the case of the Shuttle. ("Apple-branded product". Yes, I'm serious.)
6. Flip Steve Jobs the bird for a job well done.

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by pilotbob

Ah... that makes perfect sense. But, I've got to say... as marking speak as it sounds, Windows 7 is fast, stable and secure (enough). I run it on a new machine I built at the office and I've had no problems with it. Granted it don't need to support any old hardware and such.

Anyone buying a new machine today that wants Windows and thinks they should get Windows XP, in my opinion is making a mistake. As you have found windows XP and @ 2002 software doesn't support or work will with a lot of new hardware these days.

BOb

But BOb, the purpose of the hardware downgrade was to save money, in the long haul. Windows 7, in full package (not upgrade or OEM) is as much as the machine itself costs. Sorry, I can't see paying as much for the OS as the hardware. (and all other software that ought to be upgraded. Ching, ching, ching. Like I said, I want off the upgrade treadmill.)

It turns out the situation is even worse than I thought. I spent the morning trying to use the OS included with the system to upgrade to a larger hard drive. No problem, just insert the hard drive and restore from the restore disk, right? No restore disk from Acer. You have to build your own. Ok, I have an external USB 2.0 DVD Burner, no problem. Burn the disk, (took 2 disks) swap out the hard drive and run the restore. Restore runs perfectly. Try booting the system. CMOS chksum error. Restore the default checksum. Try booting again. boot works for 5 seconds, then it flashes BSOD and reboots. Over and over. So now I have a machine that I can't restore at all from a hard drive crash. Works just fine from the 160 gb factory disk running windows XP Home SP3. If you used an upgrade disk for Win 7, you'd still be in the same boat, needing to re-install xp before re-installing the upgrade. An you can't get there from here.....

Ah well, it was a nice dream while it lasted...

[devilsadvocate]

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

It turns out the situation is even worse than I thought. I spent the morning trying to use the OS included with the system to upgrade to a larger hard drive. No problem, just insert the hard drive and restore from the restore disk, right? No restore disk from Acer. You have to build your own. Ok, I have an external USB 2.0 DVD Burner, no problem. Burn the disk, (took 2 disks) swap out the hard drive and run the restore. Restore runs perfectly. Try booting the system. CMOS chksum error. Restore the default checksum. Try booting again. boot works for 5 seconds, then it flashes BSOD and reboots. Over and over. So now I have a machine that I can't restore at all from a hard drive crash. Works just fine from the 160 gb factory disk running windows XP Home SP3. If you used an upgrade disk for Win 7, you'd still be in the same boat, needing to re-install xp before re-installing the upgrade. An you can't get there from here.....

Ah well, it was a nice dream while it lasted...

If I'm understanding you right, you pulled the original hard drive out and replaced it with another? If that's the case then that would explain why your restore disc didn't work. The way an OEM system restore disc works is by pulling data from a small (usually hidden) partition on the original drive; it does not save the OS to the restore disc and reinstall it. Don't know why Acer wouldn't throw in a restore disc, but if you're doing a complete replacement (as opposed to just adding a 2nd hard drive) then a complete reinstall will be the only way.

Also, FYI when the upgrade is to Vista or Win7, a fesh install is generally the best route; I've seen strange things happen with the upgrade option, resulting in a fresh reinstall which is what the client should have done in the first place.

HOWEVER, if you simply want what you have now only on a bigger hard drive (i.e. system migration) then I would look into something like Shadow Copy which basically clones your hard drive. HTH.

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by devilsadvocate

If I'm understanding you right, you pulled the original hard drive out and replaced it with another? If that's the case then that would explain why your restore disc didn't work. The way an OEM system restore disc works is by pulling data from a small (usually hidden) partition on the original drive; it does not save the OS to the restore disc and reinstall it. Don't know why Acer wouldn't throw in a restore disc, but if you're doing a complete replacement (as opposed to just adding a 2nd hard drive) then a complete reinstall will be the only way.

Also, FYI when the upgrade is to Vista or Win7, a fesh install is generally the best route; I've seen strange things happen with the upgrade option, resulting in a fresh reinstall which is what the client should have done in the first place.

HOWEVER, if you simply want what you have now only on a bigger hard drive (i.e. system migration) then I would look into something like Shadow Copy which basically clones your hard drive. HTH.

Thanks, devilsadvocate. I'll look at getting a copy. Right now I feel about Acer about like Red feels about FDR....

Does Shadow copy clone across a USB 2.0 external hard drive? There room for only one HD in this machine.

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by devilsadvocate

Seriously though, There's really no single OS that's right for everyone, and there never will be. If you try, you get...Windows.

Which is indeed very trying.

I'm not saying everyone should go to a big-league university and spend thousands on IT-related education, you don't have to be a genius to work on/understand computers (YES, even Linux), but if one goes driving, one should know how to change a flat tire.

And many who drive cars don't.

I've been drawing the analogy between cars and personal computers for years. You can own and drive a car without being a mechanic or having a working knowledge of the principles of operation of the four stroke internal combustion engine.

But if you use a computer, you do to some extent need to be a mechanic and have some idea of how the machine does what it does to make truly effective use of it. We've come some distance since the "dreaded C:\> prompt", but we still have a way to go.
______
Dennis

[pilotbob]

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

But BOb, the purpose of the hardware downgrade was to save money, in the long haul. Windows 7, in full package (not upgrade or OEM) is as much as the machine itself costs. Sorry, I can't see paying as much for the OS as the hardware. (and all other software that ought to be upgraded. Ching, ching, ching. Like I said, I want off the upgrade treadmill.)

You are the most confusing person I have ever talked to. I thought you said you were replacing older hardware with newer hard ware... now you are saying you downgraded the hard ware?

If you qualify for the Upgrade price you can do a clean install with the upgrade media. See here for directions. http://www.winsupersite.com/win7/cle...rade_media.asp

BOb

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by pilotbob

You are the most confusing person I have ever talked to. I thought you said you were replacing older hardware with newer hard ware... now you are saying you downgraded the hard ware?

If you qualify for the Upgrade price you can do a clean install with the upgrade media. See here for directions. http://www.winsupersite.com/win7/cle...rade_media.asp

BOb

Let me make one thing perfectly clear.........

I was planning to drop from a 2.8 GHZ processor machine to a 1.6 GHZ processor machine. That's a downgrade, No? Less power? The 1.6 GHZ processor is newer than the old one. It has newer (but less capable) OS software installed. Is that an upgrade? Downgrade? Blessed if I know what to call it. I want to use the older OS either of two variants, because they support all my software I want to use, and they are paid for. No software upgrade cost. That's what I want....

What I got is a machine that I can't load my OS'es on (either one), can't restore the included OS to a new disk, and with a disk too little for my needs.
In other words, useless. Loaded Mint Linux. It works, but unlike my ASUS EEE PC (with hard drive) it couldn't connect to the internet out of the box. Time to put all of these on the shelf for a couple of months, maybe then I can buy (shudder) a restore disk. (Acer sells them, but they don't have any for the Revo available yet.....

And I can't just replace one machine. All my old ones have PS2 connectors and the Revos are strictly USB, so my KMV switch wouldn't work....

[devilsadvocate]

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

Let me make one thing perfectly clear.........

I was planning to drop from a 2.8 GHZ processor machine to a 1.6 GHZ processor machine. That's a downgrade, No? Less power? The 1.6 GHZ processor is newer than the old one. It has newer (but less capable) OS software installed. Is that an upgrade? Downgrade?

Depends...without getting into a ridiculous amount of geek-speak, all is not depndent on clock-speed. I had a 3.0 Prescott-core Pentium 4 have its binary a$$ handed to it by a 1.86 GHz Core 2 Duo.

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

In other words, useless. Loaded Mint Linux. It works, but unlike my ASUS EEE PC (with hard drive) it couldn't connect to the internet out of the box.

YMMV but my experiences with Mint were less-than-peachy on a full-blown desktop; I can only imagine how much fun it would be on a net-appliance-type device like the Revo.

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

And I can't just replace one machine. All my old ones have PS2 connectors and the Revos are strictly USB, so my KMV switch wouldn't work....

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...rp.-_-12199008 will take care of that for you fairly cheaply.

I'm by no means trying to tell anyone what to do with their hard-earned money but one of my strong suits is trying to help people do more with less, i.e. save money. I don't believe anyone should be locked into proprietary hardware Fascism, and where there's a will there's a way. HTH

[phenomshel]

Playing with my new Acer netbook that I just got instead of waiting for the Archos 9. I'd never actually SEEN a netbook up close, I didn't know that even the big ones (11.6" screen) were so TINY. One of our local stores had a screaming deal on these, (2 gigs RAM, 250 gig HD), and Chris got one, he's been saving up for one anyway. But after he got his home and unboxed it, and I got to hold it, and take it to the couch and on the bed, I realized this is pretty close to what I was going for. So, we went back and got me one, too. I saw some disturbing reviews about the Archos today, so was already having second thoughts. I think I'm going to be just as happy with this, if not happier. I'll let you know after I get it all set up

Oh...*blush* I also bought the rest of the Donna Andrew's Meg Langslow series at Barnes and Noble. In pbook. (Most of the titles aren't available in ebook, even at Amazon). I got to show off my EZ Reader and discuss the Nook. The store in DeKalb, IL says they won't have the Nook to sell from the store, but that they should be getting their store display "anytime", and they're all really excited.

[devilsadvocate]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

And many who drive cars don't.

I've been drawing the analogy between cars and personal computers for years. You can own and drive a car without being a mechanic or having a working knowledge of the principles of operation of the four stroke internal combustion engine.

You and me both. It's uncanny how many similarities there are, right down to RAM timings vs ignition timing, air vs watercooling etc.

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

But if you use a computer, you do to some extent need to be a mechanic and have some idea of how the machine does what it does to make truly effective use of it. We've come some distance since the "dreaded C:\> prompt", but we still have a way to go.
______
Dennis

Should a command prompt be "dreaded"? I can start the encoding process for a movie to mpeg in a Linux terminal window with one line, in less time than it takes Roxio to even start itself up.

Foreign languages (and programming languages for that matter) look like gibberish to the uninitiated because understanding a different language is to understand a different way of doing things, a different mindset if you will. Differences between operating systems apply as well because they are based on different philosophies:

-Windows aims to be all things to all people. That means geniuses and dolts alike, and you clearly understand the result. It's already installed and the learning curve is virtually nil since it's been around what seems like forever.

-Mac is "UNIX For Dummies". This doesn't imply that Mac users are stupid, but a Mac UI will be a lot more familiar to the casual user/target Apple customer than a terminal window. Of course, you pay for it, and dearly.

-Linux is the consummate DIY OS, available in varying states of completeness. It can run on anything but a toaster (and they're working on the toaster), but since it's so customisable it requires active effort on the part of the user...effort which has been lacking since Win 98 came out. Further, the whole shebang is predicated on the open-source development methodology.

I once wanted to start my own storefront computer business; sales, repair, B2B, custom work, all the greasy kid stuff. I got over that idea in a big hurry, after watching people whose machines I'd worked on do exactly the opposite of what I'd done to fix their machines in the first place, accuse me of not knowing what I was doing, then take the machine to someone else (who charged twice as much) to do the exact same thing.

As rude as it sounds, then, my favorite rule of engineering states that in order to use a hammer, you have to be at least as smart as the hammer.

[zelda_pinwheel]

currently i am whimpering to myself and grumbling because i managed to twist my ankle pretty badly earlier tonight, and it hurts. worse luck, apart from the normal hobbling around my appartment and hobbling to the grocery store i'll have to do, i've got appointments and meetings all over the damned city for at least the next two weeks, which is the opposite of what you're supposed to do in such cases (stay off it).

Originally Posted by pilotbob

Well, a lot of people say they are really expensive... but if you compare them to truly equivalent commodity machines like Dell and HP they are pretty similar.

quite possibly, but dell is too expensive for me too.

The funny thing on the other side is while the Mac hardware is a bit more I have found that most Mac software is very affordable and usually much better than Windows counterparts.

that's quite possible. then again, outside of the adobe suite, most of my software is free / open source anyway ; firefox, chrome, avast anti-virus, itunes, spotify, calibre, sigil, notepad, open office, vlc... it's not an exhaustive list obviously but it's a good sampling. there is very little software i have to pay for, really. (of course, the price of the adobe suite sort of makes up for that, all by itself... but that's still true regardless of the plateforme.)

Of course, if you are home building you can blow it away in price. Of course, if you are building it yourself you can by Hackintosh friendly parts.

my point. (never thought about trying a hackintosh though, maybe i'll try that one of these days).

Originally Posted by pilotbob

Wine is short for "Windows Emulator" and it runs on top of Linux. I'm not sure something like Photoshop or Illustrator will run on it. Of course, I could be wrong.

BOb

Originally Posted by EowynCarter

Not a emulator. It add sone windows library, and convert windows system calls into unix system calls.
A version of crossover for mac exists too.
Best way to know how well (or bad) a program runs with wine : http://appdb.winehq.org/

thanks for that info. i checked illustrator, out of curiosity ; all the latest versions (CS1 - 4) are rated as "garbage". i'm guessing that's not good.

Originally Posted by devilsadvocate

If you have big honkin' hardware, virtualization is a good option (lots of RAM = bonus). You basically have two real-world choices: VMware, which (at least for the superior workstation variant) costs money; and VirtualBox, which is open-source and/or freebies. From personal experience both handle Windows 7 just fine; VMware even runs the Aero eyecandy on 7/Vista now. I've been meaning to do a comparison of these on my site http://windowsanonymous.org but VBox is updated farily often, and if it's at a disadvantage this week it probably won't be next week. To sum up,

VMware: Costs money, a little more advanced
VirtualBox: Free, good for most purposes.

interesting. thanks. let me know when you put the comparison online.

Myth-busting time: Mac innards are commodity pieces; you can buy every internal part of a Mac at a computer supply place. There's no magic involved. It's all Intel/NVidia now.

i meant software compatibility. the developper i work with regularly is using windows. i've had some really annoying incompatibility problems between mac and pc versions of illustrator, even when they are the same version number, and that's only thinking of illustrator (it is the most notoriously capricious, but it's also my favourite and the one i use the most...). on the other hand, photoshop files are amazingly cross-compatible and backwards-compatible. they could teach a thing or two to the illustrator team.

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

Zelda, if you want to try using a Linux machine, you might try one of the small nettops and a KMV (keyboard, mouse, and video) switch. The aspire revo that giving me fits in windows will load Linux Mint happily. It's only 19 X 19 X 3.5 cms all up. A good KMV will let you swap from one machine to another just by toggling a key... (I've used one for years...)

hum. i'll keep that in mind, although i'm really not sure i want / have room for *another* box (even a small one). but if i get a netbook, i might try it on that.

Originally Posted by devilsadvocate

Been there, done that. It works on mine but the process isn't for the faint-hearted. The Apple EULA says that you can only install one copy of the OS and it must be on Apple-branded product. The general formula is,

1. Buy a Shuttle; same parts as an iMac
2. Buy a monitor of your choice
3. Buy a retail copy of OSX
4. Patch OSX. Yes, it's legal to do so; most of OSX (i.e. the parts that need patching) is open-source and covered under either the BSD license or GNU GPL v2.
5. Put an Apple logo somewhere on the case of the Shuttle. ("Apple-branded product". Yes, I'm serious.)
6. Flip Steve Jobs the bird for a job well done.

i'll keep that in mind.

[dreams]

Originally Posted by phenomshel

Playing with my new Acer netbook that I just got instead of waiting for the Archos 9. <snip>
Oh...*blush* I also bought the rest of the Donna Andrew's Meg Langslow series at Barnes and Noble. In pbook. (Most of the titles aren't available in ebook, even at Amazon). <snip>

Congrats on the new toy! So... now, I want one too!! Hum.. Christmas is coming up

Well, you're forgiven for that lapse into pbook form.. what can you do if it is not offered in ebook format?

Have fun setting it up!!

[dreams]

Originally Posted by zelda_pinwheel

currently i am whimpering to myself and grumbling because i managed to twist my ankle pretty badly earlier tonight, and it hurts. worse luck, apart from the normal hobbling around my appartment and hobbling to the grocery store i'll have to do, i've got appointments and meetings all over the damned city for at least the next two weeks, which is the opposite of what you're supposed to do in such cases (stay off it).

Oh, no! What happened? At least, try to keep it elevated as much as possible. I hope it gets better soon..