Fascinated and Frustrated.

[Ankh]

Originally Posted by dmaul1114

It just seems some are very resistant to such devices as they only need a dedicated e-ink reader and worry multifunction devices will kill them off or something. They won't, as such devices would be for niches like academics, scientists, doctors etc.

That's not a niche market. Letter/A4 sized PDF's are widely used in all sorts of businesses. We are talking a move to "paperless office" here.

[ziegl027]

Originally Posted by dmaul1114

Agree 100%.

These discussions tend to go in circles as most here are just interested in e-readers for leisure.

Us academics etc. need a professional device with a larger screen, ability to annotate with stylus, flip pages and switch documents quickly etc. and size, portability, battery life etc. are less crucial.

I believe that there is a great deal more overlap than some people (and apparently most reader producers) realize. As a leisure reader of novels, I often find myself confronted with situation where a "find" function would be helpful ("who the hell was that character again? I know he was introduced back in Chapter 3"). Since I often read multi-novel series, it would be nice to switch back easily and review a scene, too. Dictionary wouldn't be bad--I thought I knew about every obscure horse term it was possible to know but was recently thrown by "destrier". As a leisure reader of magazines and cookbooks, it would be nice to bookmark and tag a recipe I would like to try. And then when I tried it, to jot down a note or two ("subbed whole wheat flour, worked great!"). Lots of knitting and crochet patterns are electronic files (often PDF, some free, some pay), and Interweave Press is offering more and more e-books. And we fibery types are always changing something that we need to track (needle, yarn, gauge), and many of us work from charts that need to display properly. Don't think e-savvy knitters are much of a force? Right now there are over 2000 people active on Ravelry. That's right this second, people actually logged in (I note there are only about 100 here at the moment, and 400 some guests)--there are almost half a million registered users.

Even things like crosswords. By definition you have to "annotate" a crossword, and there's plenty out there who would love to be able to easily flip back and forth from the puzzle to, ahem, an assistance document of some form (i.e. a crossword solver's dictionary).

Lots of people would like to ditch the reading glasses, too, and if you zoom up the text enough on the small devices, you get about a sentence per page, which is annoying, too. On a larger form factor device, somebody like my FIL would be able to read much more comfortably. And jot down notes in the margins of the Economist, as is his wont.

Everything that is desirable in an "academic/business" reader has a place for many, many leisure users, too. To focus the market in two narrow divisions--those who would otherwise read only paperback novels and thus require the same degree of portability, and those who read documents for professional/academic purposes (and with business accounts to pay for the markup on things marketed in that way) is shortsighted.

[dmaul1114]

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

You mean apart from the fact this is a site primarily dedicated to e-ink readers?

I suppose. But that's the one thing that annoys me about the site. It's "Mobileread" not "E-ink readers."

Seems like discussion of reading on any type of electronic device should be good to go. It's fine people prefer e-ink, but no need to be defensive/hostile to discussion of other devices for purposes not suited to e-ink like academic use etc.

Originally Posted by Ankh

That's not a niche market. Letter/A4 sized PDF's are widely used in all sorts of businesses. We are talking a move to "paperless office" here.

Very true. I meant more just that it was a specific market not a tiny one which niche implies so poor choice of words on my part.

My bigger point is that such devices are no threat to dedicated readers aimed at avid leisure readers. Two separate markets that can easily co-exist. Many only need one or the other, and other's like me want to have both types of devices.

[dmaul1114]

Originally Posted by ziegl027

Everything that is desirable in an "academic/business" reader has a place for many, many leisure users, too.

To focus the market in two narrow divisions--those who would otherwise read only paperback novels and thus require the same degree of portability, and those who read documents for professional/academic purposes (and with business accounts to pay for the markup on things marketed in that way) is shortsighted.

Agreed. There is overlap. But there does need to be all types of devices.

Somone that never reads novels and just reads academic works just needs a large screen device with a touch screen and a lot of other bells and whistles built in since they need to always have their planner with them, check e-mail constantly etc. While someone that only reads novels isn't going to want to pay extra for all those features, nor have a larger, less portable device with shorter battery life, more eye strain etc.

However, you're right. By saying there's room for two types of devices I wasn't saying that some non-academics/professionals won't prefer the larger, multi function device for their reading or vice versa. Just simply saying there's plenty of room for all types of devices that can do e-reading functions as people have varied needs/wants in such devices. So there's no need for a "war" on message boards between e-ink readers and multi function tablets. Plenty of room for both in the market--as well as smart phones, PC reader programs etc. etc.

[Shaggy]

Originally Posted by dmaul1114

Seems like discussion of reading on any type of electronic device should be good to go. It's fine people prefer e-ink, but no need to be defensive/hostile to discussion of other devices for purposes not suited to e-ink like academic use etc.

I'm not sure if you're referring to me, but my intention is not to be hostile towards that other technology. My only point is that there is a lot of hype surrounding it. Many people are making claims about things it can do which are not backed up by what the manufacturer actually says.

When I disagree with people saying it has higher contrast, lower power consumption, and there are actual products coming out, it's merely because I don't believe those statements are true. I don't mean any hostility towards the technology.

If I am going to compare the technologies, I would prefer to do so based on facts, not hype.

[dmaul1114]

Wasn't aimed at you--or about pixelQi in general.

Just the people very hostile to multi-function tablet devices in general for whatever reason.

People are always saying how crappy they'd be for readers--jack of all trades master of none, etc. Largely because they don't work in a profession where a tablet device would be incredibly handy.

People have different wants and needs. I don't care so much about contrast, eye strain, battery life in a tablet. I just need something I can display up to A4 size PDfs on and mark them up with a stylus primarily in the office.

Not something I can curl up with in bed and read for hours on end. That's what my Kindle is for. Others just seem to hate/fear things like the long-rumored Apple tablet, probably because they worry such devices will catch on in the main stream and kill of dedicated e-ink readers. But I don't see that happening--there will always be at the very least a large niche of avid readers who just want portable e-ink readers as they don't need the other function. So no need for people to fuss so much over tablets etc. If they're not something you need, ignore them. Many of us need them to make the switch from paper to e-versions of our work documents and books.

[CleverClothe]

According to this video, the Pixel Qi screen does NOT shut off. It only has the ability to work without a backlight.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSR-m6o4ML8#t=07m10s

[Dylrob]

Originally Posted by Damætas

Hmm. Where are you getting your information re: Pixel Qi saying poorer contrast? My info is based on what Mary Lou said in San Antonio. I don't think that part is that revolutionary. After all, the older monocrome non-eink LCD display that the jetBook uses has better contrast than e-ink. See:

https://wiki.mobileread.com/wiki/Reflective_LCD

Since there are also already LCD screens that retain their image even when the power is off, I have no reason to doubt Pixel Qi on that either.

Edit: It seems others picked up on this feature as well: "Pixel Qi have finally demonstrated their clever 3Qi screen, which mixes together indoor and outdoor readability together with an e-paper mode. The same panel is used in both halves of this picture: on the left, it’s set to full color saturation with its backlight on, while on the right the backlight is off and the panel is in e-paper mode. The latter will be incredibly power-frugal, as e-paper only draws power when changing the display, not to maintain an image."

http://www.slashgear.com/tags/pixel-qi/

That Slashdot SlashGear article is incorrect. Bistability is usually considered one of the defining characteristics of an epaper display, but then for this reason you could argue that Pixel Qi isn't a true epaper technology. And while there are LCDs that can maintain their image without any power (the Fujitsu Flepia uses such a display), they currently take about 5-10 seconds to actually refresh.

Now in the interview with Mary Lou Jepsen, linked above, she pointed out that there is research being done within her industry into creating more stable liquid crystals. Potentially reducing the minimum refresh rate in the near future, which itself will greatly diminish power consumption (which is already fairly low on a reflective LCD). This research may also eventually lead to bistable LCDs with decent refresh rates.

[Damætas]

Originally Posted by Dylrob

That Slashdot SlashGear article is incorrect. Bistability is usually considered one of the defining characteristics of an epaper display, but then for this reason you could argue that Pixel Qi isn't a true epaper technology. And while there are LCDs that can maintain their image without any power (the Fujitsu Flepia uses such a display), they currently take about 5-10 seconds to actually refresh.

Now in the interview with Mary Lou Jepsen, linked above, she pointed out that there is research being done within her industry into creating more stable liquid crystals. Potentially reducing the minimum refresh rate in the near future, which itself will greatly diminish power consumption (which is already fairly low on a reflective LCD). This research may also eventually lead to bistable LCDs with decent refresh rates.

I stand corrected. Yet in the same video, she did say that bistability was in their roadmap.

[basschick]

would the reflective LCDs refresh?

[Ea]

Originally Posted by ziegl027

I believe that there is a great deal more overlap than some people (and apparently most reader producers) realize. As a leisure reader of novels, I often find myself confronted with situation where a "find" function would be helpful ("who the hell was that character again? I know he was introduced back in Chapter 3"). Since I often read multi-novel series, it would be nice to switch back easily and review a scene, too. Dictionary wouldn't be bad--I thought I knew about every obscure horse term it was possible to know but was recently thrown by "destrier". As a leisure reader of magazines and cookbooks, it would be nice to bookmark and tag a recipe I would like to try. And then when I tried it, to jot down a note or two ("subbed whole wheat flour, worked great!"). Lots of knitting and crochet patterns are electronic files (often PDF, some free, some pay), and Interweave Press is offering more and more e-books. And we fibery types are always changing something that we need to track (needle, yarn, gauge), and many of us work from charts that need to display properly. Don't think e-savvy knitters are much of a force? Right now there are over 2000 people active on Ravelry. That's right this second, people actually logged in (I note there are only about 100 here at the moment, and 400 some guests)--there are almost half a million registered users.

Off topic - sorry.

It sounds as if a Kindle 2 would be a goood device for you.

[ziegl027]

Originally Posted by Ea

Off topic - sorry.

It sounds as if a Kindle 2 would be a goood device for you.

Ah, but a lot of stuff that would be of interest to me (outside of the academic stuff that I do want, too) is in PDF (knitting patterns, recipes), and it's a big fat drag to have to convert and have things potentially not display properly. I know it's possible, but it's not as easy as I want. I would also rather have a larger form factor. I've looked into the DX (although I would only spring for a refurbished), but the note-taking function is pretty universally decried.....

I think I'm not alone in the general populace in that I want a device that makes it 1) as easy to get something readable as it is to send a file to a printer 2) As easy to annotate something as it is to pick up a pen and jot down a note in the margin and 3) As easy to find something again as it is to go to an organized bookshelf or file cabinet and get the darn thing. 4) able to display larger-format items well (magazine-style layouts, for instance).

WITHOUT having to download some program devoloped by a third party out of the kindness of their blessed geeky hearts. WITHOUT having to understand all the $&%^$ file types. WITHOUT having to pay through the nose for a device marketed at "business".

[Alisa]

Originally Posted by dmaul1114

Agreed, price is the real barrier. Even with recent drops, they're way to expensive if you're not an avid reader and only read a handful of books a year.

That's the general reaction of my circle of friends (most of whom make decent money)--just costs too much for the amount they read.

I suppose maybe if it was super cheap or free a casual reader might use a standalone reading device. I think they'll likely move to digital content when other devices have better screens and battery life. Why would they want another device to bother with if they don't read that much? If screen and power technology improve to the point where the devices are light, comfortable and can be read outdoors while still supporting color and video, then I think we'll see casual readers ditching paper.

[dmaul1114]

Originally Posted by Alisa

I suppose maybe if it was super cheap or free a casual reader might use a standalone reading device. I think they'll likely move to digital content when other devices have better screens and battery life. Why would they want another device to bother with if they don't read that much? If screen and power technology improve to the point where the devices are light, comfortable and can be read outdoors while still supporting color and video, then I think we'll see casual readers ditching paper.

Yeah, things like the iPhone (and rumored iTablet) have a better chance of expanding the e-book market to very casual readers than do even very cheap dedicated readers. Some one that doesn't read much just doesn't need a dedicated reader as you note, but may buy an e-book every now and again on one of their other gadgets that has an e-reader app as one of it's many functions.