future-proof Fictionwise multiformat choice ?

[rogue_ronin]

Originally Posted by khalleron

I don't think anyone here is subject to 'group-think.'

Readers seldom are.

But repeatedly hijacking threads is simply rude.

Originally Posted by kennyc

Agreed. As is constantly harping the same thing over and over (and I have not been here that long)

ps (or perhaps just s): xhtml or epub are probably the best archive format in the world of novels. I expect that complicated layouts are possible with these formats, just haven't been executed well. Truthfully, I think that it's primarily the display software that lets us down -- most of this software kinda stinks. Don't care for PDFs as an ebook format myself, but I get the importance of visual layout in presenting information. We're gonna get to some common screen-sizes and the tools to make beautiful books will evolve.

[JSWolf]

All it takes is a render that can handle kerning and hyphenation and we'd have ePub looking more professional then it does now.

But to get back on topic, I do feel that ePub is the best choice of current eBook formats for converting to something else. As of now, I think it's the most future proof format there is.

[Superlucky]

Originally Posted by rogue_ronin

... but I get the importance of visual layout in presenting information.

I think that importance has been completely overstated. Ebooks and p-books look the same (if you're not a typesetter).

[Direct Ebooks]

I would tend to agree that ePub is the most future proof format currently out there. It's potential is only begining to be tapped.

Having said that, whats to say something else wont come along and blow it out of the water with better features and functionality? For the next 18mths at least, ePub wil dominate though.

[rogue_ronin]

Originally Posted by Superlucky

I think that importance has been completely overstated. Ebooks and p-books look the same (if you're not a typesetter).

Beautiful layout, or even functional layout, is one of those things that you don't notice until it is missing.

I'm not talking about super-subtle things like individual character kerning on every line of text. I'm talking about things like associating images with text, choosing appropriate fonts and sizing, table layout, book structure, how and when to break pages, drop-caps, spine vs. total content, TOC, TOI, pull-quotes, etc.

All that stuff makes it easy to flip through a book and identify what you're looking for using visual cues that are usually not thought about consciously. It also gives sub-textual information about importance or the relationship between ideas as you read the book.

E-books largely fail on this level; aside from the current limits of interaction of e-books (p-books are physical and offer a high level of "play"), the major issue is that very few e-books are actually created with the attention to detail and commitment to design and beauty that have been achieved with p-books.

This is not to say that there are not a lot of p-books made that are ugly and badly edited. There are more so now, I expect, than ever.

Simple, line-broken text files can be read. But the pleasure of reading something that has had some care and imagination applied to it is far superior.

To return to your assertion about books looking the same: even within the e-book world, unzip and compare this with (just click to read) this.

A lot is possible.

m a r

[Kajti]

Originally Posted by khalleron

repeatedly hijacking threads is simply rude.

There are far worse offenders. A couple are even moderators, so you can't filter them out.

[Nate the great]

Originally Posted by rogue_ronin

Beautiful layout, or even functional layout, is one of those things that you don't notice until it is missing.

Here on MR we've seen a number of articles written by ebook naysayers, and one thing I've learned is that liking to read is not the same thing as loving books (for their own sake). The details you mention don't matter to those who like to read. They only matter to those who love books.

I, for one, like both. But if I want to read a book then I don't care much about the layout. On the other hand, I do try to make ebooks to the best of my ability.

[Superlucky]

Originally Posted by rogue_ronin

Beautiful layout, or even functional layout, is one of those things that you don't notice until it is missing.

I've heard it repeatedly asserted that it's missing from ebooks, and I (and many other people) haven't noticed, so this statement is patently false. I think people who create p-books would love for it to be true, but it just isn't. I agree with Nate. It's great when a book (p or e) looks good, but if it doesn't I don't care.

[ficbot]

For fiction, I never notice the format. When I download something from Feedbooks wit the nice chapter titles, it's nice, but not having those is in no way a deal-breaker for me and plain old text works just fine. Many of my books are converted eReader and therefore are plain text extracted from HTML. I get caught up in the story and don't even notice.

If a nice layout matters---cookbooks, for example---I buy them in print and not in E.

[Eddie]

Wow, the thread has definitely exploded Thank you all for your opinions - I'll definitely store the .epub files as back-ups.

On the formatting front, I think that most current ebooks don't look as nice as pbooks, but for most texts I don't care. I agree with rogue_ronin though - text files with paragraphs broken in lines (like the Project Gutenberg example) are really annoying. I can stand the lack of italic/bold/fancy lettering, but standard-sized lines are awful - what if I want to use a bigger font ?

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by Superlucky

I've heard it repeatedly asserted that it's missing from ebooks, and I (and many other people) haven't noticed, so this statement is patently false. I think people who create p-books would love for it to be true, but it just isn't. I agree with Nate. It's great when a book (p or e) looks good, but if it doesn't I don't care.

With the caveat that it be readable. If the format is so bad that it is difficult to read then - at least for me - all bets are off.

[MovieBird]

Originally Posted by Superlucky

I've heard it repeatedly asserted that it's missing from ebooks, and I (and many other people) haven't noticed, so this statement is patently false. I think people who create p-books would love for it to be true, but it just isn't. I agree with Nate. It's great when a book (p or e) looks good, but if it doesn't I don't care.

I agree. I don't want a cover image. I want a title page like a 6th grade book report, title up top in large letters, author's name in the bottom right in smaller letters. That's it! The feedbook branding annoys me, particularly because it's a color to gray-scale transition. I don't care about a synopsis or author biography, that's what Wikipedia is for.

Inside the book, I don't want pictures unless they're presenting factual information. In a fiction book, the best picture is the one you draw in your head. Bill Watterson, of Calvin & Hobbes fame, never told his readers what the "wet noodle incident" was. This was an event Calvin's parents would reference when Calvin was really acting up, and would scare him. Bill never explained the incident, because it could never be as good as what the individual reader had imagined for themselves.

For a textbook, sure pictures are important. Ditto for a biography. But for a cheap fiction story? It actually detracts from the reading experience for me to deal with poorly rendered images of someone else's thoughts. I HATE the Harry Potter art because it doesn't jive with my conception of how Harry should look.

I don't want fancy chapter titles, or curlicue first letters of a sentence. That's annoying. It throws the rest of the page off, and often makes it hard to locate where the next line begins because of the stupidly exaggerated letters. Oh sure, "if done well" will be a caveat, but why even add the complexity and annoyance? Books are about transferring thoughts in written form, not to look pretty.

Part of the reason I enjoy ebooks so much is because it removes all of that excessive garbage so often found in pbooks. If only most of them weren't OCR'd...

[EowynCarter]

Originally Posted by Shaggy

Is professional typesetting something that the average reader cares about?

Nope.

I miss hyphenation support on my opus, as the gen-3 had it.
But then, a soft can handle that. There'll be a 1 % where it won't be perfect, but really, not a problem.

Then I do care about the few improvement ePub did bring over mobi (ie multiple fonts, and the extras from css.

All it takes is a render that can handle kerning and hyphenation and we'd have ePub looking more professional then it does now.

Yeap. That and few improvement here and there on ePub.

[calvin-c]

Originally Posted by Hellmark

PDF is an open format, NOT a proprietary one.

So if I have an idea I think will improve PDF I can implement it into PDF's that I distribute? I suspect I'd have Adobe's lawyers knocking on my door if I did that.

Being able to freely *use* a format doesn't mean that it isn't proprietary.

[DawnFalcon]

Originally Posted by calvin-c

So if I have an idea I think will improve PDF I can implement it into PDF's that I distribute?

Sure, but you'll need to write an addon to support your changes (Which people can and did even when PDF was propriatory!). If you want to change PDF for everyone, you'll need to get involved with the ISO...

(It's been an ISO standard for over a year now)

Indicentally, if you archive as PDF, I'd recomend PDF/A-1b