Torrents and torrents..

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by ahi

Isn't he implicitly doing just that by not attributing his books to Project Gutenberg, wherefrom most he probably sourced? Not that PG's terms governing use of the PG name and trademark permits him to do so...

I would like nothing more than to give my corrected texts back to PG. Unfortunately, they have ignored every e-mail I've sent them offering to do so.

[PKFFW]

Jezz louise!! There seems to be an awful lot of discussion going on about something that no one seems to be "demanding" be done. A lot of questioning of others ethics, a lot of suggesting not offering a torrent is wrong, a lot of likening the uploaders to the big bad evil corporations who cripple ebooks with DRM, a lot of.....basically....whinging.

If you all want a torrent, go ahead a make a torrent. It has been stated that you are all free to do so, even if you may not be free to post a link to the torrent here at MR. Stop questioning peoples ethics, rights and what not and just go do it already.

Or is it that whilst you are of course not "demanding" someone at MR do it, it's just too much effort to do yourself?

Cheers,
PKFFW

[tompe]

Originally Posted by PKFFW

A lot of questioning of others ethics,

Where have you seen that? People have wondered about how to reason to come to a conclusion. It is perfecty valid to be curious about this. You seem to confuse discussing reasons for having certain opinions with peoples interests in doing certain things.

I also do not get why you are whinging. You seem to misunderstand what people write and the you complain based on your misunderstandings. Why do you feel a need telling other people about what they can discus?

I have not yet had time to write a script to download all books. If somebody have a script or access method for all books already please share it.

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by HarryT

I would like nothing more than to give my corrected texts back to PG. Unfortunately, they have ignored every e-mail I've sent them offering to do so.

I'm afraid that PG has become a bureaucratic machine. I've given up hope for adding anything more, as the last addition took nearly two years to make it through their maze.

Harry, have you tried to communicate with PG Australia? I've found them to be much more easy to deal with. Whether or not they'll allow duplicate titles with PG USA I don't know, but it might be worth checking...

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by ahi

Why shouldn't there be arm-twisting? The people whose arms would arguably be twisted do not in fact have any legal claim of rights to the works in question, as Harry himself stated several times.

All we (not I personally, to be sure) would be trying to do is to get them to be conscionable and admit this in writing. Might as well be public.

- Ahi

Because of a little something called human dignity. I'm not talking legal rights here, PD is PD. But people should have the right to say no, and have it respected, else they will end up saying no the hard way, by no longer contributing. And that's far worse the the short term gain from arm-twisting...

[Jellby]

Originally Posted by HarryT

I would like nothing more than to give my corrected texts back to PG. Unfortunately, they have ignored every e-mail I've sent them offering to do so.

I've sent half a dozen corrected files to errata@pglaf.org, sometimes I've got a reply saying thanks and they'll look into it when they have time, sometimes I've got no reply.

[ricdiogo]

Originally Posted by ahi

Isn't he implicitly doing just that by not attributing his books to Project Gutenberg, wherefrom most he probably sourced? Not that PG's terms governing use of the PG name and trademark permits him to do so...

Ahi, I'm not sure of which HarryT's ebooks you are talking about.

However Project Gutenberg allows everyone to change the actual text from it’s ebooks.

But _for legal reasons_ we actually prefer that people simply do not say that the final etext comes from PG when they change it. (Eg.: do not use phrasings such as “Source: Project Gutenberg”).

If one wants to identify the source as being PG, please make it clear that the text has been changed, improved, corrected etc etc _by yourself_. (Eg.: Source file found at www.gutenbeg.org that we’ve changed, improved and corrected ourselves).

Originally Posted by HarryT

I would like nothing more than to give my corrected texts back to PG. Unfortunately, they have ignored every e-mail I've sent them offering to do so.

Sorry to hear that. I’m not sure if by “ignored” you mean “never answered” or “not accepted”.

If PG’s people haven’t answered you, please try to sent those emails to someone else at PG. If they have not accepted your offering maybe that’s because PG tends not to accept people “offering” to do something. The standard answer is “You are welcome to do that. Call me when you’ve done it.”

In either case, I strongly invite you to post your concerns at our gutvol-d discussion list. Individual volunteers may have a partial perspective of PG. Maybe if you discuss it with everyone in public it’d be more efficient.

PG will certainly accept your final files as long as you send the corrected version in accordance to PG’s formatting conventions (by simply replacing the corrected words) and be kind enough to also update all the files that have been produced from the original TXT (HTML, Unicode versions, etc).

It is true that our errata team is working very slowly.

Maybe if you directly send your files to the posting team? That's what I personally do.

Please ask for suggestions and guidance from other volunteers at gutvol-d. We need those changes and we certainly need you!

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

I'm afraid that PG has become a bureaucratic machine. I've given up hope for adding anything more, as the last addition took nearly two years to make it through their maze.
Harry, have you tried to communicate with PG Australia? I've found them to be much more easy to deal with. Whether or not they'll allow duplicate titles with PG USA I don't know, but it might be worth checking...

Ralph, it’s certainly not usual at PG that posting the final file someone has sent in can take two years. Usually it takes two days to a week.

Did you produce the text file yourself or did you send the scan sets to Distributed Proofreaders?

About PG Australia (and PG Canada by the way), please get in touch with them on how to send in your files. It’d be just wonderful if we could raise the number of ebooks they provide!!

Now back to the topic:

I’m personally fine with someone selling the ebooks I’ve produced for PG (even on paper). Those ebooks don’t belong to me. They belong to mankind and everyone can do whatever they want with them.

When I decide to produce an ebook all I can think off is: this author will be available online; everyone can read it for free; small publishers can even use the work I’ve done to sell them and make a profit with that.

I don’t think it’s immoral that publishers can make a profit with a book I’ve simply transcribed.

I admit that sometimes I laugh at big publishers when I see them selling books I’ve produced for PG. “Little greedy people”, I think to myself.

_BUT_ I know that I’m helping small publishers from poor regions of the world that’d never publish _that_ book if there wasn’t me. I’m glad that people from those regions may have access to that peace of culture, even if they have to pay for it, even if it's on paper, and until they have an Internet access for getting them for free.

There’s more world beyond the USA, Europe and Amazon you know?

The same applies to torrents.

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by ricdiogo

...

Ralph, it’s certainly not usual at PG that posting the final file someone has sent in can take two years. Usually it takes two days to a week.

Did you produce the text file yourself or did you send the scan sets to Distributed Proofreaders?

About PG Australia (and PG Canada by the way), please get in touch with them on how to send in your files. It’d be just wonderful if we could raise the number of ebooks they provide!!

...

When I offered to provide some late 19th/early 20th century Utopia/SF books, I was requested to provide it in scans for DP. I wasn't given any other option. I provided 3 books (The Pharoah's Broker, Mizora, and The Doomsman) They varied from 9 to over 20 months to get through the process. After 6 months, I gave up on PG US and corresponded with PG Australia. They would take books without going through DP, so I provided them with The Crystal Button and Man Abroad, personally scanned and tripled proofed by me. (I am working on Station X fitfully, and it is a boring book, but I will eventually release it to PG Austrailia. Then I will do Indian Tribes of North America by McKenney and Hall (1836 to 1844, 120 color illustrations) and release it there as well.)

[ahi]

Originally Posted by HarryT

I would like nothing more than to give my corrected texts back to PG. Unfortunately, they have ignored every e-mail I've sent them offering to do so.

I did not suggest you were in error with regards to not doing so, Harry. As I stated, I do believe it would be downright illegal for you to do so. You can only use the PG trademark if the content (presumably meaning the text, more than the formatting... though I could be wrong) is 100% unchanged from what is available on PG. If you fix a single typo, you can no longer credit them.

Edit: Thanks, ricdiogo. I just saw your post. That does clarify things a bit. Are you sure the sort of source identification you suggest is officially acceptable to PG though?

- Ahi

[ahi]

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

Because of a little something called human dignity. I'm not talking legal rights here, PD is PD. But people should have the right to say no, and have it respected, else they will end up saying no the hard way, by no longer contributing. And that's far worse the the short term gain from arm-twisting...

Sorry, Ralph... but you seem to suggest that people should be granted de facto legal rights by people that the law does not grant them at all... simply because they want it (or perhaps because they did some unknown amount of work relating to it?).

I don't think that's right or moral. The way I have no problem with writers who constantly cry and whine about piracy never writing another book again, I much prefer that the people who upload PD books understand and respect the concept of the Public Domain. I would certainly not actively encourage somebody's delusions that they own rights to public domain material. (I'm not talking about anyone in specific, to be clear.)

- Ahi

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by edembowski

In the case of Baen, I don't believe the restrict redistribution of their free library but they certainly do on their non-free library.

- Ed

Correct, Baen does not restrict distribution on Free Library titles. They want you to copy and share them.

Aside from the stuff on the Baen web site, they also provided books on CDs bound in to various Baen hardcovers, which again you were encouraged to copy and share. They even included CD cover art you could apply if you had the gear to use it. (And much of what appeared on the CDs did not appear on the web site.)

Torrents of all of the Baen CDs are available, as are ISO images and big Zip files, from http://baencd.thefifthimperium.com/ .

(That site says on the front page "For the small minority of people who still seem to think that this site is blatantly trampling upon multiple copyrights and don't believe what's in the linked CD-ROM Orientation, feel free to visit the Baen Publishing Enterprises web site and drop a dime on me. They have a lively web forum and you can speak directly to the publisher and webmaster in several conferences. Just be prepared to be roundly mocked after complaining about this site.

Baen knows all about this site, to the point where the publisher has my phone number and she's not afraid to use it.")


The non-free stuff is indeed another matter.
______
Dennis

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by HarryT

I would like nothing more than to give my corrected texts back to PG. Unfortunately, they have ignored every e-mail I've sent them offering to do so.

Who did you send to? I may be able to assist.
______
Dennis

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by BlackVoid

What if MobileRead goes out of business? What if I want to bulk download for this possibility?

By the way, there are many download managers, but unfortunately the one I have tried could not bulk download from MR. Anyone know about a DL manager that can handle it?

Which DL manager do you use, on what platform?
______
Dennis

[ricdiogo]

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

When I offered to provide some late 19th/early 20th century Utopia/SF books, I was requested to provide it in scans for DP. I wasn't given any other option. I provided 3 books (The Pharoah's Broker, Mizora, and The Doomsman) They varied from 9 to over 20 months to get through the process. After 6 months, I gave up on PG US and corresponded with PG Australia. They would take books without going through DP, so I provided them with The Crystal Button and Man Abroad, personally scanned and tripled proofed by me. (I am working on Station X fitfully, and it is a boring book, but I will eventually release it to PG Austrailia. Then I will do Indian Tribes of North America by McKenney and Hall (1836 to 1844, 120 color illustrations) and release it there as well.)

Ralph, it is true that PG encourages people without experience in producing ebooks to first provide the scans for DP. _However_ this is not mandatory and I'm deeply sorry if someone has misinformed you.

Everyone has the right to produce the text file all by themselves, withought DP's intervention at all!

All PG asks you is: 1st - to provide a copy of the title page for getting a copyright clearance; 2nd - that your file is a TXT; and 3rd - that you follow PG´s formatting conventions. (_italics_ +bold+ and so on).

Volunteers submit text files they have produced all by themselves everyday.

PG Australia is great project that needs more and more ebooks in their catalog. I'm happy you are contributing to it if that works best for you.

But please keep in mind what I've just said before and if someone tells you the opposite just let me know so I can determine what's going on.

[mtravellerh]

Originally Posted by ahi

Sorry, Ralph... but you seem to suggest that people should be granted de facto legal rights by people that the law does not grant them at all... simply because they want it (or perhaps because they did some unknown amount of work relating to it?).

I don't think that's right or moral. The way I have no problem with writers who constantly cry and whine about piracy never writing another book again, I much prefer that the people who upload PD books understand and respect the concept of the Public Domain. I would certainly not actively encourage somebody's delusions that they own rights to public domain material. (I'm not talking about anyone in specific, to be clear.)

- Ahi

To make this short and clear: MR, as a community and especially the uploaders, will not provide bulk downloads of the book uploads. As you have stated, these books are in PD (save for a few exceptions). It is up to you to package those books and put them in torrents if you think that should be done.

Besides, there are practical problems with these bulk downloads as some books are CC, others are only in PD in specific countries and not in others, so these torrents could become illegal very quickly!