Torrents and torrents..

[tompe]

Originally Posted by stustaff

I wish this fear of somethin new or of giving your content consumer the ability to use your content in the way they want didnt exist at MR.

MR should be embracing the freedoms that the current technology gives us not hiding in the past.

and most of teh excuses do seem like unfounded excuses with no evidence to back up the claims.

This is my opinions also.

My thinking would be that it is fun and good to share an ebook. If somebody suggest additional way to share the ebook my reaction would be very positive since it enhanced the sharing. So the people in this thread interpreting it as "demanding things" is probably not thinking in terms of sharing. They seem to think that we have two groups of people and the people belonging to downloaders and readers of the ebook should show proper thankfulness and respect to the elite group of providers.

[Shaggy]

Originally Posted by tompe

They seem to think that we have two groups of people and the people belonging to downloaders and readers of the ebook should show proper thankfulness and respect to the elite group of providers.

I really hope I'm wrong, but that's definitely the impression I'm getting as well (at least in certain cases).

[PKFFW]

Originally Posted by Shaggy

I don't want to speak for ahi, but "uploaders" is not a single entity. Yes, some have said anyone is free to provide a torrent (which they are), but I have gotten the impression from some of the posts on here that others would be opposed to that.

That's my point exactly.......

Some here have claimed "no one is demanding anything".

Then on the flip side it is said "but I've gotten the impression from some posts........"

Well I'm sure I'm not alone in "getting the impression" that many here are demanding that torrents be made available. Also, in many cases, I've "gotten the impression" that those demands have been made in a rude way.

Originally Posted by Shaggy

It would be interesting to see what would happen if somebody posted a torrent link on here or in the wiki to a MR bulk download. I have a suspicion, but obviously don't know for sure. I think ahi's comments along those lines are the equivalent of her suspicion of what would happen.

It has only been said the anyone is free to collect the ebooks and offer a torrent for it. It has not been said that a link to that torrent would be allowed to be posted on this site. There are many places to post a link and plenty of ways to make the torrent available to any who want it without posting here at MR.

Cheers,
PKFFW

[PKFFW]

Originally Posted by ahi

Since I do not have the good manners of the idea's opponents, I can neither match them in politeness, gratitude, or acute reasoning.

Good manners is a choice.


Cheers,
PKFFW

[stustaff]

ppkw

If someone demands something that is good for you should you then ignore the suggestion out of principle?

I believe the saying is 'Dont bite off your nose to spite your face'.

Rather than discuss the way some people are asking/demanding for an improvement or making suggestions/demands for how to improve MR and get more people reading the great MR books... why not discuss the actual suggestion itself?

The suggestion seems on the face of it to be both achievable, realistic and in line with what MR wants to achieve.

It would be interesting to see anyone suggest any reason why the community couldnt/shouldnt be engaged in creating a great resource like this.

Let me gaze into my crystal ball...

3 months from now some individuals create a great torrent file containing all of MR's books and then starts to distribute it, its a really good torrent as its kept up to date and is clearly set up so people can easily select and download just the books they want.

Another person sets up a site for people to find out about this torrent(as MR keep deleting teh posts from the forums here) and to allow discussion of the torrent and details of any errors or missing books people find, they tack on a little forum for that discussion.

Now when people do a google search for free ebooks or ebook forum they have a choice of two sites, one where they can easily download the best versions of ebooks as created by MR uploaders.

Or visit the MR site and spend a couple of hours downloading a 100 books that they decide THEY want to keep on their device.

Eventually more and more people stop visiting MR so dont join the forums or click on any of the adverts on MR...


OR

MR catches up with the rest of the world and actively promotes their torrents(bit like Baen) in line with the seeming attitude of most of its users who believe in both technology and sharing Ebooks(where the legal rights allow) More people start to visit MR and download and discuss the books etc etc

Seems a no brainer to me? can anyone suggest a reason why MR wouldnt do this that isnt mired in the same hysterics and fear that we lambast publishers and publishing houses for?

[Sparrow]

To be honest, I'm disinclined to respond to suggestions made to me with similar attitudes attached to them.
Why bother? It's dispiriting.

[PKFFW]

Originally Posted by stustaff

ppkw

If someone demands something that is good for you should you then ignore the suggestion out of principle?

I believe the saying is 'Dont bite off your nose to spite your face'.

Rather than discuss the way some people are asking/demanding for an improvement or making suggestions/demands for how to improve MR and get more people reading the great MR books... why not discuss the actual suggestion itself?

I did state my position on the suggestion. That is, I do not care one way or the other if MR offers a torrent of all MR uploaded books.

The reason I posted what I did is because I see a very clear undercurrent of rudeness developing in the short time I have been a MR member. Many threads have been littered with personal attacks and insults for seemingly no better reason than the fun of posting such infantile vitriol. This rudeness, imho, is potentially far more harmful to the MR site than the lack of a torrent to bulk download.

There is a way to make suggestions that is polite and considerate. Personally, if I were the owner/operator of MR I wouldn't be inclined to take heed of any "suggestion" that is made in a rude manner or phrased such that it seemed like a demand. If I did take the time to even respond to such "suggestions" and my response was subsequently questioned as to it's honesty I would be even less inclined to take heed of any further "suggestions" made by those members.

Just my 2 cents.

Cheers,
PKFFW

[Lemurion]

Originally Posted by Shaggy

I think the answer to a similar question regarding commercial books would receive two completely different answers depending on whether you asked publishers or consumers.

(1)Eliminate easy access, and people who otherwise wouldn't have participated in your service will (for some reason) decide to do so. Inconveniencing your regulars with a deliberately crippled product is justified in order to try to force the leeches to participate.

(2)Exposure and an improved product will increase the number of people participating in your service. The people who are only interested in leeching aren't worth worrying about, because they're unlikely to participate in your service either way. Focus on making the service better for those who participate, and more people will become participants.

It sounds like, for some people on here, their answer is basically the same as the publishers. You'd think they'd be more enlightened than that.

Using the term "deliberately crippled" to refer to the lack of a bulk download option at MobileRead sounds very much like a complaint based on entitlement to me.

I am completely in favor of allowing at least some form of bulk downloading from MobileRead. I would love to download a collection of Burroughs or Wodehouse or any other writer - and bulk downloads would make that much easier. I love bulk downloads for the convenience factor.

That doesn't mean MobileRead needs to arrange the download section for my convenience - the section is arranged to meet the goals of the site. How well that arrangement works to meet those goals is open for discussion, but that doesn't take away the rights of MobileRead's staff to make those decisions and offer the books the way they want to.

It's not "deliberate crippling," it's a different set of priorities, and people are allowed to do things according to their own priorities.

[Shaggy]

Originally Posted by Lemurion

Using the term "deliberately crippled" to refer to the lack of a bulk download option at MobileRead sounds very much like a complaint based on entitlement to me.

Not at all. That post was about the same question asked to publishers/customers, and in that context "deliberately cripped" refers to DRM.

The fact that it's very easy to confuse a statement about the Publishers position regarding filesharing and MRs position regarding torrents kind of illustrates my point though.

[Shaggy]

Originally Posted by Lemurion

That doesn't mean MobileRead needs to arrange the download section for my convenience - the section is arranged to meet the goals of the site. How well that arrangement works to meet those goals is open for discussion, but that doesn't take away the rights of MobileRead's staff to make those decisions and offer the books the way they want to.

Absolutely true. Nobody has a right to demand that MR offers a service that they don't want to. What features/conveniences they choose to spend their time creating for users is entirely up to them.

However, when someone else goes through the trouble of creating a torrent and links to it are either (allegedly) deleted from user's posts or loudly objected to, it kind of points out that there is more to it than MR staff choosing not to put the effort in to offer the capability themselves.

It illustrates a deliberate choice to prevent such access being made through MR's site, regardless of who's effort is involved.

Again, they are within their rights to do so, but let's call it what it is. The arguments by some on here about users demanding efforts on the part of MR (entitlement) or MR's right to decide what features they want to spend their volunteer time enabling are not really part of this issue. All of that is just a red herring.

I may be wrong in this, but my interpretation of what I've seen is that the issue comes entirely down to a refusal to allow any access to a torrent of the PD works from their site, regardless of who creates that capability. It's not that they don't want to enable it themselves, it's that they're refusing to allow it. They're are within their rights to do so, but let's all be honest about it.

My intention is not to sound ungrateful or demanding, I just wish that if that's the policy that they would come out and say so. I may have various reasons for not agreeing to it, but I respect their right to make the policy that they want.

[DaleDe]

do you have any cases where this happened? So far as I know links were only removed when they led to copyrighted books.

[AprilHare]

Wow! I can't believe I inspired so much impassioned arguments and discussion!
I only wanted some nice torrents of e-books!
Thanks to the person who suggested baen torrents - I downloaded a CD and will examine the contents From what I can tell both baen and gutenberg torrents do not have epub files (yet). Thanks to the person who suggested the Gutenberg LRF torrent - I hope if and when PRS-500 users get a epub upgrade they can still be viewed
It should be pointed out that a person who downloads a torrent isn't under any obligation to download every file in a torrent. Most decently written bittorrent clients let you pick and choose.
Torrents aren't set in stone either: updates to a torrent can and are made available.
And it might be useful to those who expect to be away from the Internet for a long period of time (travelling, isolated, etc.) to have a library of ebooks readily available for examination. It wouldn't stop someone from later on discussing it (re: MobileRead).
I know the media and some companies has demonised torrents but I didn't think it they had done such a good job as to make people hostile to torrents this vehemently! It's only a way to share files, you know - HTTP and FTP are other better known ways to share files and they don't get 1/10 the flak that torrents apparently get despite being arguably much more accessible to pirates..

[Lemurion]

Many if not most of us have no problems with torrents: I've downloaded Baen torrents, Linux ISO torrents, and updated games through torrents. It's a very useful technology.

I personally haven't been opposing torrents, what I've been opposing is those people who appear not to be respecting the decision that has been made that MobileRead will neither provide nor support torrents or other bulk download options for the books on the site. Their right to make that decision outweighs the desires of other people, myself included, to have at least some bulk downloading capability.

[ricdiogo]

As some of you have stated above, Project Gutenberg seriously encourages people to download our torrents and our entire catalog.

You may find further info here.

Please please DO download Project Gutenberg's torrents and our entire catalog as long as you can/are willing to.

And please _please_ make sure you share it, seeding it with your torrent client.

We don't want our volunteers' efforts to be lost forever if Project Gutenberg's website shuts down for any reason!

We don’t want our catalog to be hosted only by a few partner websites. Our dream is that everyone may share our entire colection.

You can create your own CD/DVD and share it with whoever you want. If you are willing to create special torrents for +70 or +50 years-after-death public domain countries, please subscribe our gutvol-d volunteers’ discussion list and ask for help.

[Shaggy]

Originally Posted by DaleDe

do you have any cases where this happened? So far as I know links were only removed when they led to copyrighted books.

I don't, that's why I said allegedly. Another poster said previously that it has happened before, though.