"eBook versions of owned paper books" Popular Front

[braver]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

The right to read it: yes.

...

But you don't have the right to demand anyone else produce that version, nor if they have, demand they hand the results of their work over to you.

Of course we do have a right to demand! The publishers have a right to disregard our demands. The crux of the argument is whether you want to demand or not. If enough folks demand it, it may happen, and if more publishers provide digital upgrade, they will win. So if you demand it, you'll speed up progress and will be on the side of the universal Good! Don't you want to be on the winning side and speed up progress?

[Hellmark]

Originally Posted by braver

Of course we do have a right to demand! The publishers have a right to disregard our demands. The crux of the argument is whether you want to demand or not. If enough folks demand it, it may happen, and if more publishers provide digital upgrade, they will win. So if you demand it, you'll speed up progress and will be on the side of the universal Good! Don't you want to be on the winning side and speed up progress?

Most people here are merely saying it is stupid to demand it, because it'll be soundly rejected. Why fight a losing battle, when there are more important causes to back?

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by braver

Kenny, I'm becoming really curious now. Let's read the previous post together.

If you add a paper book you bought elsewhere, you may be eligible for a discount on ebook.

There's a menu to enter your paper book by pragprog you bought elsewhere and you'll get an ebook for less.

Also, at any point of time after buying the pbook, you still can buy the ebook for much less.

Now which portion of the italicized text made you think that someone's trying to get something for free, and, especially, how do you interpret it as not being able to digitally upgrade at any time after buying the pbook?

Twelfth time.

You can buy the ebook at amazon as well later. And yes it is generally cheaper than the pbook. What is you YOU are not getting?

I'm done with this, take your argument to Amazon, to the Publishing companies. Let me know how far you get.

[ahi]

Originally Posted by kennyc

Twelfth time.

You can buy the ebook at amazon as well later. And yes it is generally cheaper than the pbook. What is you YOU are not getting?

I'm done with this, take your argument to Amazon, to the Publishing companies. Let me know how far you get.

How sad...

[ahi]

Originally Posted by kennyc

More irrelevant spewage.

.....

[Barcey]

I agree with the spirit of what braver is saying. Content provider are arguing out of both sides of their mouths.

If you want to argue that I'm paying for the physical copy that's fine but that means the digital copy is worth nothing.

If you want to argue that the digital copy has value because you're paying for the right to consume the content and not the container then that's fine but it means that if I want to change the container I shouldn't have to pay for the right to consume it again. Charge an administrative fee to recover the cost to convert it or let me do it myself.

If you want to argue that I'm buying a one time temporary license to read the content at the will of DRM gremlins then make it a "rent" button and not a "buy" button and charge me appropriately.

The publishing industry is arguing you're paying for the physical copy and not the content for paper books but you're paying for the content and not the physical media with an ebook. You have to play by the old rules for regional restrictions. You're only temporarily licensing the right to consume the book and we can remove that right at any time. The old rules of right of first sale don't apply so you can't resell. You can't pass the text through a text to speech engine because that might hurt audio book sales. It costs more to temporarily rent you an ebook then to sell you a physical book. Copyright violation is stealing. Illegal downloads are the greatest evil facing mankind. The public just needs more education to understand all this.

Having said that complaining to Amazon won't get anywhere. The publishing industry have made them an evil pariah over something as simple as reasonable ebook prices. They aren't going to further alienate themselves over this (even if they agree). They've demonstrated this with the TTS issue. There's no money in it for them. It's the publishing industry you'd have to convince and good luck with that.

Luckily I'm not bitter.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by ahi

How sad...

again you add nothing of relevance to the topic at hand.

[pking36330]

The music world has already gone through all the machinations the ebook world is just now starting to go through. I think just based on the nature of the Music Business environment compared to the Book Business environment we might all agree that things happen faster in the music world than in the book world (agree? Please...I DID NOT mean this as a slight to anyone or any firm in the book publishing or distribution business, its just a generalizations and I KNOW there are exceptions).

So in the Music Business world that is 5-10 years ahead of Book Business world in regards to digital media, DRM, digital distribution, physical player devices, etc., the Music World offers some lessons for how this might shake out. When Music World went through the CD-to-Digital media conversion, did the people who still bought CDs get a free iTunes/Zune/MP3 download when they bought a CD? No. Still don't. You can buy a CD in WalMart today and stand on the checkout counter until you turn WalMart blue in the face and you still won't get a free download of the songs on the CD. If you want MP3s of your CD, you have to rip them yourself (which is considered legal for your personal use, but not filesharing).
Similarly, if you purchase an album on iTunes/Zune/AcmeDownloads, do you automatically get a free physical media copy of the same content? No. If you want that you have to compile and burn the CD yourself (again, considered legal for your own use, but not legal to burn dozens of copies and give them away or sell them).

So in the Book World, you can imagine they are watching the Music World to discover some lessons learned (we'll all agree they are late coming to logical DRM conclusions), but I don't think you can realistically expect you will gain any traction demanding a digital media version of a physical book you've purchase or a physical book version of a digital media book you purchased.

I personally would love to see it, I hope it comes to pass, but I can't make a valid business argument that would convince a company to do that. And you've got to take the emotion out of this, like it our not this is the Book Business. I think if B&N or Amazon ever got in a shootout for supremacy of market share (as in trying to sweeten their stock before being acquired by a larger firm), then you MIGHT see them offer this as the 'revolutionary change' you are looking for. But that decision will be about market share, name recognition, and acquision/merger impact, and shareholder value and NOT about the desires of a few ebook reader who feel entitled to freebies.

I'm hopeful I didn't step on toes. But my assessment is: Great idea...will not happen.

[Hellmark]

Originally Posted by Barcey

I agree with the spirit of what braver is saying. Content provider are arguing out of both sides of their mouths.

If you want to argue that I'm paying for the physical copy that's fine but that means the digital copy is worth nothing.

If you want to argue that the digital copy has value because you're paying for the right to consume the content and not the container then that's fine but it means that if I want to change the container I shouldn't have to pay for the right to consume it again. Charge an administrative fee to recover the cost to convert it or let me do it myself.

You're paying for the right to read the content in a specific form.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by pking36330

The music world has already gone through all the machinations the ebook world is just now starting to go through. I think just based on the nature of the Music Business environment compared to the Book Business environment we might all agree that things happen faster in the music world than in the book world (agree? Please...I DID NOT mean this as a slight to anyone or any firm in the book publishing or distribution business, its just a generalizations and I KNOW there are exceptions).

So in the Music Business world that is 5-10 years ahead of Book Business world in regards to digital media, DRM, digital distribution, physical player devices, etc., the Music World offers some lessons for how this might shake out. When Music World went through the CD-to-Digital media conversion, did the people who still bought CDs get a free iTunes/Zune/MP3 download when they bought a CD? No. Still don't. You can buy a CD in WalMart today and stand on the checkout counter until you turn WalMart blue in the face and you still won't get a free download of the songs on the CD. If you want MP3s of your CD, you have to rip them yourself (which is considered legal for your personal use, but not filesharing).
Similarly, if you purchase an album on iTunes/Zune/AcmeDownloads, do you automatically get a free physical media copy of the same content? No. If you want that you have to compile and burn the CD yourself (again, considered legal for your own use, but not legal to burn dozens of copies and give them away or sell them).

So in the Book World, you can imagine they are watching the Music World to discover some lessons learned (we'll all agree they are late coming to logical DRM conclusions), but I don't think you can realistically expect you will gain any traction demanding a digital media version of a physical book you've purchase or a physical book version of a digital media book you purchased.

I personally would love to see it, I hope it comes to pass, but I can't make a valid business argument that would convince a company to do that. And you've got to take the emotion out of this, like it our not this is the Book Business. I think if B&N or Amazon ever got in a shootout for supremacy of market share (as in trying to sweeten their stock before being acquired by a larger firm), then you MIGHT see them offer this as the 'revolutionary change' you are looking for. But that decision will be about market share, name recognition, and acquision/merger impact, and shareholder value and NOT about the desires of a few ebook reader who feel entitled to freebies.

I'm hopeful I didn't step on toes. But my assessment is: Great idea...will not happen.

Well said.

[PKFFW]

Originally Posted by braver

It's illuminating that a significant chunk would not want the gifts of Troy! On the contrary, PKFFW, I'm grateful to the responders that they provided a completely different collective gestalt than one might expect.

The meaning of this groupthink remains to be thoroughly understood. Now I see that marketing is not all BS -- here's a puzzle for sociologists!

Why do you find it so "illuminating" that most simply realise that the idea isn't going to happen and therefore why bother fighting for it?

I know you don't like analogies and examples from the past(they tend to show your argument for what it is which is nothing more than wishful thinking) but as has been pointed out, and this is a completely comparable situation, when you buy a CD you don't get free digital downloads of all the songs do you?

Originally Posted by braver

Of course we do have a right to demand! The publishers have a right to disregard our demands. The crux of the argument is whether you want to demand or not. If enough folks demand it, it may happen, and if more publishers provide digital upgrade, they will win. So if you demand it, you'll speed up progress and will be on the side of the universal Good! Don't you want to be on the winning side and speed up progress?

We also have the right to demand they give all their product to us for free. So why not go for gold?

Maybe because you know it aint going to happen?

Oh and if you disagree with demanding it for free, then I can condescendingly imply you are a mug sheep led by the evils of marketing and ponder why you wouldn't want the "gifts of troy"!

Cheers,
PKFFW

[braver]

Originally Posted by PKFFW

Why do you find it so "illuminating" that most simply realise that the idea isn't going to happen and therefore why bother fighting for it?

I know you don't like analogies and examples from the past(they tend to show your argument for what it is which is nothing more than wishful thinking) but as has been pointed out, and this is a completely comparable situation, when you buy a CD you don't get free digital downloads of all the songs do you?
...

PKFFW

Well, funny how many veterans with 1000+ posts suggest CD vs iTunes download or another MP3 download as an analogy to ebook for pbook!

Class, anybody wants to refute that one? (Hint: scanning books vs ripping CDs... original content analog vs. already digital... Hope I didn't give it all away...)

[PKFFW]

Originally Posted by braver

Well, funny how many veterans with 1000+ posts suggest CD vs iTunes download or another MP3 download as an analogy to ebook for pbook!

Class, anybody wants to refute that one? (Hint: scanning books vs ripping CDs... original content analog vs. already digital... Hope I didn't give it all away...)

Let me see.........

1: Book content is in a digital format and then put into a medium which consumer purchases.(pbook)
2: Consumer wants content to be usable via a different medium. Consumer has right to scan book and turn into digital file for use on ebook reader or consumer can purchase a copy of the digital file.(if available)

or

1: Music is in a digital format and then put into a medium which the consumer purchases.(CD)
2: Consumer wants content to be usable via a different medium. Consumer has right to rip CD and change format for use on mp3 player or consumer can purchase a copy of the digital file.(generally available)

In both cases the original digital format of the content is used to produce a product for purchase.(either pbook or CD) This digital format is readily reproducible at low or no cost.

In the case of the CD, once mp3 players became common place, never was the purchaser of a CD supplied, by the seller either at time of purchase or a later date, with a digital copy of all the music on the CD for free or at a reduced cost on the basis of having bought the CD in the past.(except in isolated marketing and PR campaigns)

Besides the fact that music is more readily available in digital format, I'm not really seeing why you are so adamant the analogy is flawed. Could it simply be because the analogy doesn't support your argument so rather than admitting that it is valid and something that might be worth considering you insist it is flawed and not relevant?

Cheers,
PKFFW

[braver]

There's a single 1-1 way to read a CD back, and it doesn't require much more from a user than getting a free program and sticking a CD into a computer.

Surely scanning books is just such an easy, reproducible process. Stick a book into... Hmm, not quite, huh?

[Blue Tyson]

Originally Posted by Barcey

Having said that complaining to Amazon won't get anywhere. The publishing industry have made them an evil pariah over something as simple as reasonable ebook prices. They aren't going to further alienate themselves over this (even if they agree). They've demonstrated this with the TTS issue. There's no money in it for them. It's the publishing industry you'd have to convince and good luck with that.

Luckily I'm not bitter.

You can of course stop buying paper books at all. If enough people do that, and some of the big oligopolistic bookstore chains fall over.......