"eBook versions of owned paper books" Popular Front

[BlackVoid]

Any free society would allow its citizens to scan a book that they already own.

“None are so hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free.” Goethe

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Morlac

I completely agree that Amazon has the capability to identify whether or not a given customer has or has not purchased a book from them.

More than that, they actually DO know - and tell you. At least on the Amazon UK site, it you visit the page for any item you've previously bought, it says at the top of the page "You bought this item on such-and-such-a-date".

That's very handy, because it's stopped me from inadvertently re-purchasing items that I'd entirely forgotten that I'd already bought.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by HarryT

..

That's very handy, because it's stopped me from inadvertently re-purchasing items that I'd entirely forgotten that I'd already bought.

Me too, but at least once I did it anyway.

[calvin-c]

Originally Posted by braver

The contents is the same, and the fact that you don't think you're entitled to it in all possible shapes means you're still in the 20th century, or are a perfect customer for RIAA and the like, or both.

The 21st century model should be, you buy content at a certain a level of quality, and then are entitled to it in all media forms.

Don't have time to read this entire thread so hope I'm not repeating a point that somebody else has made, but I'll go along with your argument only to the extent of the US copyright law, i.e. *you* are entitled to convert the content you own to whatever media form you choose to use it in. IMO you are *not* entitled to make somebody else do the work for you. Unless you pay them, of course.

I don't have a theoretical objection to your earlier statement, that you'd be willing to pay a nominal fee to cover the OCR, etc. (which I will categorize as a discount on the ebook version, since I feel certain that's how it would be implemented, were it to be implemented at all) but I see very definite practical problems with it. How does the ebook seller verify that you do, in fact, own the paper version? Even if they sold you the paper version (as Amazon did) how do they know you still have it? And the justification for discounting the ebook version is that it's *your* paper version in a different media, right? So the two versions must be tied to justify the discount-if you get rid of your paper version then you should get rid of your ebook version, too. Otherwise you're doing nothing except cheating the seller.

Given these problems I'd say that the copyright law is the best way to go. If you want to do the OCR then you have the right to convert your paper versions into ebooks. But I think it'll turn out to be more work than you think-I have yet to see an OCR program that doesn't require proof-reading & correction afterwards. Personally, my time is worth more than the cost of a second version (in ebook format) if I really want a book in ebook format. (Mostly I buy new books in ebook format but see little reason to duplicate those I already have in paper version. Except where it's part of a series-then it's most convenient to have the entire series in the same format. I do the same with hard cover vs. paperback, too.)

[braver]

It's worth repeating, so repeat I must.

The word "entitled" was used by an early opponent and I re-used it rhethotically to emphasize that you own the content once you buy it, or at least the right to read it in any shape or form humanly possible.

The question of providing it on different media requires that the cost of the media be covered, plus shipping and handling, and even a profit, but my argument is that it will become natural to ask for the surcharge to be small, and gauge whether the group here wished to get digital upgrade.

It's illuminating that a significant chunk would not want the gifts of Troy! On the contrary, PKFFW, I'm grateful to the responders that they provided a completely different collective gestalt than one might expect.

The meaning of this groupthink remains to be thoroughly understood. Now I see that marketing is not all BS -- here's a puzzle for sociologists!

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by braver

..... you own the content once you buy it, or at least the right to read it in any shape or form humanly possible.
....

I think this is your fundamental flaw in reasoning. You do not own the content, you own a particular instantiation of the content. If you wish to translate that content into another form (another instantiation) then certainly it is your right to do so for your personal use. But to expect the vendor that sold you the initial version to do that for you is just silly.

[braver]

Originally Posted by kennyc

I think this is your fundamental flaw in reasoning. You do not own the content, you own a particular instantiation of the content. If you wish to translate that content into another form (another instantiation) then certainly it is your right to do so for your personal use. But to expect the vendor that sold you the initial version to do that for you is just silly.

And as the paragraph below that says, I do not expect anyone "to do that for me" -- I posit that it's logical to want that, and that the market forces will deliver it once it's almost free, such as ebook for pbook. And I explicitly mention a fee. However, I'd like the digital upgrade to work similarly to the one already implemented by Amazon.

I highly recommend any guru who wants to weigh in to thoroughly familiarize themselves with Amazon digital upgarde as it exists already, to get up to speed faster.

[kennyc]

You seem to change your tune as you go along. First you are demanding that Amazon give you free or virtually free product. Now you are saying you are willing to pay a "media cost."

But as has been explained multiple times above NO COMPANY IN THEIR RIGHT MINDS are going to do this.

If you had purchased the rights to both versions - like with Manning. They you would already have them. It doesn't work in retrospect. If you want a new product then you need to be willing to pay for it. End of story. There are many other issues as well. Do you really still own the original product or have you sold it to someone? Etc. Etc. Etc.

[edembowski]

Originally Posted by kennyc

You seem to change your tune as you go along. First you are demanding that Amazon give you free or virtually free product. Now you are saying you are willing to pay a "media cost."

Actually, he's been very consistent on this point. He opened the thread with that in the first post.

But as has been explained multiple times above NO COMPANY IN THEIR RIGHT MINDS are going to do this.

Spot on. If it's part of the sale, you get it. If it's not, you don't. The best way to get there (if that's what you're trying for) is to only buy paper books that sell the rights to both media.

- Ed

[braver]

Check out PragProg.com. I have a bookshelf full of books there, a lot of which can be downloaded in

-- epub
-- mobi
-- pdf

If you add a paper book you bought elsewhere, you may be eligible for a discount on ebook.

Real publishers, especially the cutting edge ones, "get it."

[kennyc]

You're still not getting it. Pragprog.com is totally different than amazon. There you are purchasing both the paper and digital together, you are paying for them up front. Just like with Manning. A totally different thing than going back and demanding something for free that you never paid for.

[ahi]

Originally Posted by edembowski

Spot on. If it's part of the sale, you get it. If it's not, you don't. The best way to get there (if that's what you're trying for) is to only buy paper books that sell the rights to both media.

Sun Tzu's Art of War ($3.99 on Amazon) and Free Multi-Display/Font Size PDFs and ePub/Mobi/Kindle (Free). And, unlike most other free (and many non-free) editions, the last sentence of this edition doesn't say that spies are marine units.

I'll avoid musing about right minds and not so right minds.

- Ahi

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by ahi

Sun Tzu's Art of War ($3.99 on Amazon) and Free Multi-Display/Font Size PDFs and ePub/Mobi/Kindle (Free). And, unlike most other free (and many non-free) editions, the last sentence of this edition doesn't say that spies are marine units.

I'll avoid musing about right minds and not so right minds.

- Ahi

More irrelevant spewage. You pay for the paperback and get the ebook free, but that is the deal UP FRONT. Jeeze.

The Art of War is available free in ebook form at multiple sites:

http://inkmesh.com/ebooks/the-art-of...The+Art+of+War

[braver]

Originally Posted by kennyc

You're still not getting it. Pragprog.com is totally different than amazon. There you are purchasing both the paper and digital together, you are paying for them up front. Just like with Manning. A totally different thing than going back and demanding something for free that you never paid for.

Kenny, I'm becoming really curious now. Let's read the previous post together.

If you add a paper book you bought elsewhere, you may be eligible for a discount on ebook.

There's a menu to enter your paper book by pragprog you bought elsewhere and you'll get an ebook for less.

Also, at any point of time after buying the pbook, you still can buy the ebook for much less.

Now which portion of the italicized text made you think that someone's trying to get something for free, and, especially, how do you interpret it as not being able to digitally upgrade at any time after buying the pbook?

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by braver

It's worth repeating, so repeat I must.

The word "entitled" was used by an early opponent and I re-used it rhethotically to emphasize that you own the content once you buy it, or at least the right to read it in any shape or form humanly possible.

The right to read it: yes.

The right to have a version handed to you, formatted for your reading preferences: no.

That's the crux of the argument here. When you buy a book, do you have the right to read it on a screen instead of paper? Sure. You even, in the US, have the right to copy it in order to do so.

But you don't have the right to demand anyone else produce that version, nor if they have, demand they hand the results of their work over to you.