Better without pages

[dmaul1114]

Citations are more to cover our asses in terms of plagiarism, intellectual property.

The reader being able to find it is their own problem. And finding older editions isn't much of a problem. My stuff is only being read by fellow academics in my field who have access to university libraries that usually have the multiple editions.

And sure if there's a print version AND an e-version that's fine. I'll get the print version and cite it in my work. Readers again can fend for themselves in tracking down the same version I cited.

The issue arises if in the future the e-version is the ONLY option. Until then, I couldn't care less as I'm just 100% sticking with paper versions for all my academic work for now.

[Jellby]

Originally Posted by dmaul1114

Citations are more to cover our asses in terms of plagiarism, intellectual property.

I don't understand why a page number is needed for that. You cite someone's words, stating his/her name and the book title, isn't that enough? (I'm not talking about the possible publisher's/editor's requirements.)

The issue arises if in the future the e-version is the ONLY option. Until then, I couldn't care less as I'm just 100% sticking with paper versions for all my academic work for now.

When the only available edition is electronic, you can say Sam E. Author wrote "This is not possible", and anyone can (or should be able to) search the book to instantly find the "This is not possible" sentence.

[Abecedary]

Originally Posted by Jellby

I don't understand why a page number is needed for that. You cite someone's words, stating his/her name and the book title, isn't that enough? (I'm not talking about the possible publisher's/editor's requirements.)

When the only available edition is electronic, you can say Sam E. Author wrote "This is not possible", and anyone can (or should be able to) search the book to instantly find the "This is not possible" sentence.

Here's a page that lists several examples of AMA-style citations. Of course, different styles vary, but these tend to cover most of the bases.

Ones to pay attention to are Chapter from a Book and Journal Article, because for those, you list which pages contain the relevant chapter or article. However, at the same time, you'll notice that they have a style for Online Journals or Articles Without Page Information. These work by using a DOI (digital object identifier), a persistent URL-like identifier that should always resolve to an online version of the article. This is better than listing a URL because it allows sites to redesign/reorganize their material (or be bought by someone else, etc) while still allowing that DOI to point to the article (it's basically an abstraction of the URL concept). So ideally the DOI will still be relevant in 10-15-20 years' time.

DOIs were created specifically to track different versions and editions of any type of digital object, including ebooks. The only thing I'm aware of that it doesn't take into account is the Chapter from a Book example, but I'm sure a solution there can be found, too. Just off the top of my head, one solution is as follows: The second portion of a DOI (after the /) is generated by the creator/publisher using whatever schema they choose. They could simply have a general DOI for the book itself, then add -1, -2, -3 or something similar and have sub-DOIs for each chapter.

[Jellby]

Originally Posted by Abecedary

Ones to pay attention to are Chapter from a Book and Journal Article, because for those, you list which pages contain the relevant chapter or article.

The pages for chapters are unnecessary, if one gives the number/title of the chapter, that should be enough.

For articles in journals, they are indeed usually identified by page numbers, and even when you get the articles online, you search by page numbers. But the pages inside an article are mostly irrelevant, one only cares about the page where an article starts, to locate it. Even so, some journals don't identify articles by page numbers, but give each article an id number, like J. Chem. Phys.

The only thing I'm aware of that it doesn't take into account is the Chapter from a Book example, but I'm sure a solution there can be found, too.

In books with contributions from different authors, it's possible for each chapter to have a separate DOI, and the whole book to have yet another DOI.

[ahi]

Originally Posted by Jellby

The pages for chapters are unnecessary, if one gives the number/title of the chapter, that should be enough.

How do you figure, Jellby?

I don't mean to be argumentative... but I totally do not see where you're coming from on this issue.

It seems to me page numbers make perfect sense, since the citations refer to specific editions... not just the abstract notion of a book by a certain author with certain content.

Those who have access to good libraries can check citations with complete ease, those who do not have to work a bit harder but should still be able to manage. Academics, the intended target audience, are likely to fall into the former category. So... all is as it should be... no?

- Ahi

[Jellby]

Originally Posted by ahi

How do you figure, Jellby?

I don't mean to be argumentative... but I totally do not see where you're coming from on this issue.

I mean in academic citations. In the example Abecedary gave, page numbers with book chapters are not given to locate a particular passage in the chapter where something interesting is written, but rather to specify the whole page range of the chapter. If I say that some theory is explained and discussed in Chapter 7 of "Recent Advances in Scientific Science", what is exactly the use of saying that this chapter starts at page 349 and ends at page 390?

But I agree this is not the original point of this thread.

[ahi]

Originally Posted by Jellby

I mean in academic citations. In the example Abecedary gave, page numbers with book chapters are not given to locate a particular passage in the chapter where something interesting is written, but rather to specify the whole page range of the chapter. If I say that some theory is explained and discussed in Chapter 7 of "Recent Advances in Scientific Science", what is exactly the use of saying that this chapter starts at page 349 and ends at page 390?

But I agree this is not the original point of this thread.

Oh, ok. I see your point, and in that context I do agree with it.

- ahi

[dmaul1114]

Originally Posted by Jellby

I don't understand why a page number is needed for that. You cite someone's words, stating his/her name and the book title, isn't that enough? (I'm not talking about the possible publisher's/editor's requirements.)

No, not unless the APA, MLA and other citation systems used in academic journals and books change their rules.

If you're making a direct, word for worn quote, you have to cite the page number the quote is on. i.e. the parenthetical citation would look like (Johnson, 2008, p. 38). If you're not quoting and just citing a paraphrase or finding etc., then you don't need the page number. But you do have to list the page number range for the journal article in the bibliography (or if it's a chapter of an edited book--collection of papers by different authors)--you don't if you're citing an actual book.

So you not talking about publishers requirements etc. is a moot point--we have to adhere to the standards.

Could the standards change? Maybe, but I doubt they'd drop page numbers. If you're going to directly quote something you need to be able to cite directly too the page the quotation is on so people can find it easily. IMO there will have to be some kind of standard pagination or location system for e-books and articles to really catch on in academia.

But in any case, for now we are stuck with current standards and have to be able to cite a page number and for something like a website you have to cite paragraph numbers you count yourself.

So it's one of many reasons I've stuck with paper for my academic work and will for the foreseeable future.

[Jellby]

Obviously, when the only available edition of a work is an electronic edition without pages, the publishers cannot require page numbers in citations to it.

[dmaul1114]

Originally Posted by Jellby

Obviously, when the only available edition of a work is an electronic edition without pages, the publishers cannot require page numbers in citations to it.

And as I said--they currently require paragraph numbers. Which is a huge pain in the ass since you have to count them yourself--so I avoid citing anything that's electronic only (website articles etc.) unless it's something I have no choice but to include (no paper source that makes the same argument etc.). Or just paraphrase it rather than quoting so the paragraph numbers aren't needed.

[Jellby]

Originally Posted by dmaul1114

And as I said--they currently require paragraph numbers. Which is a huge pain in the ass since you have to count them yourself--so I avoid citing anything that's electronic only (website articles etc.) unless it's something I have no choice but to include (no paper source that makes the same argument etc.). Or just paraphrase it rather than quoting so the paragraph numbers aren't needed.

And probably they haven't defined what exactly is a paragraph. Do chapter headings count as paragraphs? Introductory verses, epigraphs or quotations are paragraphs? Is a picture or a math formula a paragraph? A piece or poetry has as many paragraphs as stanzas or is it all a single paragraph, or none?

That seems as absurd as word count requirements (where the above is still valid). Fortunately, the publishers I've worked with didn't have such requirements, or at least they haven't enforced them yet.

But if I had to, I'd say citations from an ebook are all from "page 1"

[dmaul1114]

Yeah, like I said, it's a pain in the ass. I don't count headings, tables, figures, formulas etc. and just real paragraphs of text, but there's no real standard for it so I just avoid e-versions of stuff for the most part. If it's not in print, I don't bother reading it for work most of the time as if it didn't lead to a peer-reviewed article or a scholarly book it's probably not research worth citing anyway.

Add in that I just end up printing them out anyway as I have to be able to highlight and scribble notes etc. on stuff I'm picking apart and citing to do my work efficiently and I'm a LONG way from any serious use of e-versions of books and articles for my scholarly work anyway.

[rogue_ronin]

Book citations are what they are for good reasons. Edition, publisher, publication city, page numbers -- all necessary in a world of paper books. And still necessary in a world of silicon and pixels.

The purpose is to help you navigate to the quoted phrases, and allow you to find the context for their use. They are the original hyperlink, structured to help you work with the available technology (physical libraries, card catalogs, paper books.)

If you're using a hard-coded format, like PDFs, it's going to make some sense to do exactly the same thing: the edition would be some standard size, likely, but the page sizes would vary between books and editions, just as paper books do. So you'd cite it in a very similar way.

Otherwise, for reflowable formats, you can only do some other sort of counting -- there are no pages unless we add an arbitrary, abstracted one. And that's just unnecessary effort. We count what is there, easy to access and obvious -- Sections, chapters and paragraphs. Structure, not markup. (Any page-based format is marking up the content, not structuring it. It's picking perhaps necessary, but arbitrary, groups of elements and calling them for display.)

Right now, because we're in transition, there is often no easy way to find the structural position. Thus we see the ridiculous example of having to print out a document to count the paragraphs.

The proper model is to have the device/software count it for us, and to make it easy to access that number, but not have it in your face. Current models of "page counts" in ebook readers do this, actually. It's just counting something impermanent (screen size divided by line/character size) or arbitrary (character count = abstracted "universal" page size).

All it takes is a little meta-info in the paragraph markup to become standardized. I expect that there are proposals -- look at the way ebook-viewer in Calibre does it, for instance. You just click a button, hover and up pops the info.

In fact, done properly, it would be possible to use this format for printed books as well -- the key being to find a way to make the count not annoy the reader. (Most of my ideas for this are wacky. Fluorescent, invisible ink, for instance!) Lawyers do it already, for their documents (even down to the line -- which ought to be the same as paragraphs in an ebook, actually, because line-broken paragraphs suck!)

Now that I think about it, plays and poems are often given line counts to help in locating cites, and they appear in the book. (Perhaps all books could have a lighter-printed per-chapter paragraph number close to the binding.)

To add a reason to the list of reasons for non-paged documents: I like the challenge of using the available tools (and they'll keep improving) to find ways to present text in a relative manner. By that I mean: can you make a presentable document that will resize and reflow, and still look good? Can you link images, text to each other in a dynamic, effective way? And can you make it function in a pleasing manner -- is it a pleasure to navigate? Is there a way to add a reading of the text by offering a new set of linkages? I like the feeling of flow and elegance when the book works well, and I can adapt it to my needs of the moment.

I don't see the page to the same detail that some folk do. I like it when someone has gone to the extra effort to make a page beautiful, but I'm only annoyed by the larger failures (spelling, broken paragraphs, text that is obviously mis-spaced, and the like.)

Printing, typography and page layout have had a few centuries to come to their current state. eTexts have basically been widely available since 1996. It's going to keep getting better and more beautiful.

m a r

[magicmonster]

I prefer to use the page instead of scroll funtion because many times the scroll feature is choppy. I prefer to have both the page number and the % of the book that has been read. Today was the perfect example... I was reading and was at 98% at page 1145 and the thing froze up and needed to be reset. The % would have too many possible pages but since I had not changed the font I could click the bar a couple of times and find page 1145 and continue right were I had left off.