geographic restrictions at Fictionwise

[ficbot]

News: my alerting of David at Teleread, followed by yet another follow-up to the still-non-responsive Steve at Fictionwise yielded the following answer:

There does appear to be a bug which is now fixed, that caused some prior purchases to have download problems. Thank you for bringing that to my attention. There was never any intent to deny past purchases from being downloaded, it was simply a programming error.

He also suggested that I use the 'contact customer service' button if I have any other questions because he is not the best person to answer customer queries. Hmph.

[Sweetpea]

This would imply that future downloads might be disrupted if you bought a GR book

[Jellby]

The publishers' demand that a book is sold only in certain countries, while naive, is one thing.

The implementation of allowing purchase and download only to users that have a credit card issued by a US bank is pure nonsense, it has nothing to do with the publishers' rights.

I wonder, though, could they provide a service by which they send you a memory card with books inside by conventional mail? If you can buy paper books from outside the US, you surely can buy a card with ebooks inside.

[tompe]

Originally Posted by Jellby

The publishers' demand that a book is sold only in certain countries, while naive, is one thing.

The implementation of allowing purchase and download only to users that have a credit card issued by a US bank is pure nonsense, it has nothing to do with the publishers' rights.

Why do you believe that? It seems very plausible to me that the publishers looks at the method they use to restrict the sales and decide based on that if they should take the seller to court or not.

[Crowl]

Originally Posted by Sweetpea

This would imply that future downloads might be disrupted if you bought a GR book

Unless he was aware of the ways round geographic restrictions, he was probably under the impression that current and future downloads weren't possible already.

[Crowl]

Originally Posted by tompe

My point was that when you buy a DRM:ed book you must be prepared to loose the possibility to re-download anytime. So whatever the reason is you should not be surprised.

Not every issue has to be about drm, if fictionwise sold drm-free files and added geographic restrictions to those as well then those would still be just as restricted without having any drm.

[geertm]

Originally Posted by Jellby

I wonder, though, could they provide a service by which they send you a memory card with books inside by conventional mail? If you can buy paper books from outside the US, you surely can buy a card with ebooks inside.

Interesting idea, but how about this:
If I understand correctly the difference between buying a paper book at amazon.com and downloading an e-book from Fictionwise is that in the first case the country of the seller is considered to be the country where the sale takes place, and that in the latter case the country where the e-book is downloaded is considered to be country where the sale takes place. This is the reason for geographical restrictions on USA-only e-books.

What if Fictionwise would replace the download link in the bookshelf with an "e-mail me this e-book" button?
Your DRM info and e-mail address are registered in your Fictionwise account, so I assume that it would be possible to implement a system that downloads the book at Fictionwise (download location USA) using your registered DRM info and e-mails the downloaded book to your registered e-mail address.
This would, in my opinion, not be different from buying a paper book at amazon.com, which after the sale is sent to your location outside the USA.

Would this legally be possible?

[Jellby]

Originally Posted by tompe

Why do you believe that? It seems very plausible to me that the publishers looks at the method they use to restrict the sales and decide based on that if they should take the seller to court or not.

Because whether a user has an US credit card or not at a given moment says nothing about whether the user is in the US or not at that moment.

[Sweetpea]

Originally Posted by Crowl

Unless he was aware of the ways round geographic restrictions, he was probably under the impression that current and future downloads weren't possible already.

I still can't download The Lost Symbol unless I spoof my IP. Though I can download those other books again.

[tompe]

Originally Posted by Crowl

Not every issue has to be about drm, if fictionwise sold drm-free files and added geographic restrictions to those as well then those would still be just as restricted without having any drm.

Yes, of course. My comment was about this particular case and in this case it was DRM:ed books that was not available.

[tompe]

Originally Posted by Jellby

Because whether a user has an US credit card or not at a given moment says nothing about whether the user is in the US or not at that moment.

Yes, and so what? If the publisher accepts this check as enough than the check is there because of the geographic restrictions and the publishers demand in connection with that.

Also I do not believe that it is the delivery address that is the problem legally and contractual since you can easily bypass this by buying the book to your US home address and then pay a company to mail it to you at you current location.

[Jellby]

Originally Posted by tompe

Yes, and so what? If the publisher accepts this check as enough than the check is there because of the geographic restrictions and the publishers demand in connection with that.

OK, there are at least two viewpoints. One what you apparently mean. The publishers demand some actions from the seller, the seller does something that satisfies the publishers, everybody's happy (except the customers).

The other is trying to comply with distribution contracts. If, as I understand from what I've read here, publishers have rights to sell only in certain countries and the place where the sell takes place for ebooks is considered to be the place where the buyer is (at the moment of buying, I'd say), then asking for a US credit card has nothing to do with this. This is what I mean. If having a US credit card is a necessary and sufficient condition for buying an ebook, the rules are not what I (and most people here) understood.

[Alfy]

How is the credit card proof of living in the US? What if I am a European living in the States for 6 months? I would not necessarily bother getting an American card for such a short period, but should still be allowed to purchase ebooks there. And conversely, I know MANY Americans who live in Europe and have American cards, and who can thus access American ebook stores...

The whole thing is one silly mess...

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by Ea

BTW, I've just gotten a response from Fictionwise, saying they'd deleted the book and re-imbursed the micropay. Oh, well... I weren't legally allowed to buy those books, I just used a loop-hole - how much can I complain?

You're legally allowed to buy them; FW isn't legally allowed to sell them.
If you visit the US, you can buy books here, no problem. However, a bookstore here can't contract to sell you books and ship them overseas; that clashes with the publisher's distribution contracts.

The potential crime/tort here is all FW's problem; you're not breaking any laws or even contracts by attempting to purchase something that European publishers don't want you to be able to buy from US publishers.

Originally Posted by Ea

Oh, 48$ something - I assume I can still be allowed to spend them on non-geographic restricted books. AFAIK I don't need to be a member to use saved micropay. If not... too bad. I'll get over it.

Micropay sticks around even if you don't have a BuyWise membership. (I no longer have a membership.) You don't get the club price anymore, but it stays, and you'll still be able to buy non-restricted books. You'll still be a "FictionWise Member," which means that you have a login ID & a bookshelf.

[HansTWN]

It is not just the publishers, it is also European governments who want to collect the tax on your online purchase.