PRS-600 today I decided to return my PRS-600

[richman]

yeah, this thread was just about some people who were disappointed in the 600 for one reason or another. It is sort of a heads up about when you go to store , look at these things for yourself and see if it would bother you or not. Some of these people have other ereaders so they are comparing them which is useful feedback.
I don't think anyone is right or wrong to say they don't like the glare or anything else, it's a personal preference and it's okay to share a personal preference.
Generally if many pro reviews say the same thing as majority of user reviews , that would be an indication that maybe I should go with the majority. It's safer. I do the same thing with movie reviews, someone always likes a movie the majority hate, but over years I mostly want to watch movies that get rated good/excellent or I pick a movie reviewer that I like how he rates movies I like.
So , we are not condemning the 600 , and some love it, and some don't like glare and some don't like the contrast as much as one of the other ones.

[Kysmeth]

Originally Posted by Justice Strike

Those infidels!!

LOL
I was almost one, when my 505 broke I tried to have SONY make me a deal on the price (because I had bought 3 devices in less than a year, for me and family) they wouldn't budge and all they offered was a free overnight shipping...
I was pissed, and seriously considered a KINDLE DX, but in the end I caved in and bought the 600 (which I love btw) and I took my free overnight shipping)....

[ifonline]

Originally Posted by Justice Strike

Those infidels!!

I am one of those, although I do need to sell my Kindle 2 and cover. I am enjoying the 300 much more.

[Superlucky]

Originally Posted by Kysmeth

... and I took my free overnight shipping)....

Good god, have a little self-respect!

There's some guy working at Sony right now retelling this story. It ends with "... and I said, 'You'll take the free shipping and you'll like it!' and that was the end of that."

[Justice Strike]

Originally Posted by Kysmeth

LOL
I was almost one, when my 505 broke I tried to have SONY make me a deal on the price (because I had bought 3 devices in less than a year, for me and family) they wouldn't budge and all they offered was a free overnight shipping...
I was pissed, and seriously considered a KINDLE DX, but in the end I caved in and bought the 600 (which I love btw) and I took my free overnight shipping)....

3 of the prs 505 broke?!?!? i was considering buying one :S

[ifonline]

I think that Kysmeth had only one break... the others were for family members.

[Haesslich]

Originally Posted by Justice Strike

This is a picture I found which clearly illustrates what i'm getting versus what I expected to get. See my silver prs600 pictures posted earlier. Those are pretty similar to what you see here. Those where taken with a fluorescent bar shaped lights with plastic diffusors. I suspect this picture was the same.

I have a possible reason for why reflection's so bad for some people, outside of the fact that the screen is definitely prone to them... and the idea struck me after looking at that photo again.

To everyone who reads the PRS-600 and had screen issues; how many of you held them at a right angle to yourself or flat against a surface like a newspaper, with your back to a light source, and how many of you held them at a bit of an angle the way you might read a paperback novel? One thing I did notice, especially indoors (and playing with the display model) is that if you hold it at a right angle to the ceiling or else flat against a surface, the screen WILL catch all of the light in the room and reflect it straight into your eyes. No ifs, ands, or buts - especially without some sort of book-cover style case (the Sony cases, the M-Edge cases) to cut out some of the glare from any light sources to the side. If you hold it at an angle like reading a paperback novel on a moving bus, the light mostly glares off the sides of the reader or at the very top or very bottom edge of the screen itself and away from your face.

I think the whole 'how you hold the reader' thing falls under personal preference, but I'm betting that's why Sony let the PRS-600 (and the 700 before it) leave the prototyping stage with the current design which has caused literal headaches to many of the people who were dissatisfied (and some who are satisified) with the reader. It's definitely a design issue with the reader, much as the PRS-700's even more glare-ridden screen was before it.. and I think this has to do with the way Sony's designers never seemed to think of how the reader was held, outside of adding a non-slip back to the PRS-300 and PRS-600.

Originally Posted by Justice Strike

I think your right.... but i don't care. The screen is basic functionality. It's the most critical part of the device. If it's not working to expectiation, it really defeats the purpose of the device.

True, but that's again a personal preference, and I suspect some of the issues people had would have been cleared up by having a book-style cover or a bit more thought on the part of the designers when considering how people would use these. I think people's reading habits do factor into how bad the glare is, unless there's also a hardware issue that makes the glare worse on some of the PRS-600's sold.

[ifonline]

You may be right, but my take on it is this: I can read my 300 everywhere I could read the 600, and can read it in places I couldn't read the 600. I don't have to think about light source, or angle of the reader, or side lighting... it just works, and it's comfortable.

So while I appreciate that you have taken the time to over-analyse the situation, I think it's absurd that people are going to such great lengths to "prove" that the screen is basically, ok (depending on the available light, where that light is coming from, what angle you are holding the reader, etc.). All these hoops you have to jump through should be proof that there is a problem with the screen.

As I said before, however, tolerance to the screen issues is at different levels for different people, and for those that like the 600 (or 700 for that matter), more power to you.

[Haesslich]

Originally Posted by ifonline

You may be right, but my take on it is this: I can read my 300 everywhere I could read the 600, and can read it in places I couldn't read the 600. I don't have to think about light source, or angle of the reader, or side lighting... it just works, and it's comfortable.

So while I appreciate that you have taken the time to over-analyse the situation, I think it's absurd that people are going to such great lengths to "prove" that the screen is basically, ok (depending on the available light, where that light is coming from, what angle you are holding the reader, etc.). All these hoops you have to jump through should be proof that there is a problem with the screen.

As I said before, however, tolerance to the screen issues is at different levels for different people, and for those that like the 600 (or 700 for that matter), more power to you.

The reason I debate it, and look for causes, is because simply saying 'the PRS-600 is worse than the PRS-505' doesn't address the issue, and is the sort of statement that can be written off by Sony or anyone else as simple whining that is to be ignored as being unimportant. Looking at the reasons we're having the issues to begin with, on the other hand, gives either anyone at Sony who even pretends to care (or perhaps more importantly, the competition to whom Sony will pay much more attention to, and who may be in the mood to trawl through opinions on these devices, looking for ways to deliver a better experience and usurp some of their customers) both valuable feedback as well as the types of real-world usage data which normally improves a third-generation product like the PRS-600/300 series.

Many older touch-screen devices which don't use the capacitative technology of the iPod Touch and iPhones didn't have this level of glare reported (or demonstrated) by a lot of the people in this thread; as an owner of one of these PDA's, I can attest to it, although the antiglare screen protectors helped greatly in situations where there was a lot of sunlight shining directly at the device. So why does the Sony PRS-600, a second-gen touch device and a third-gen eReader, show a lot more glare, despite being newer devices?

I suspect the answer has to do with the ergonomics of the design, and the failure of whatever engineers worked on it, to address usage patterns and the way people can read books or newspapers. With the way the thing's balanced, the non-slip back, and how the controls are laid out, it appears the designers of the PRS-600 decided that everyone read their books and held their readers at an angle like that used to hold and read paperbacks, which appears to be why glare's not as big an issue with some of the users here. The complaints here suggest that people read in a variety of locations, and hold their readers a variety of ways.. which means if you're not one of the people who holds it the way Sony apparently thought everyone SHOULD hold their readers, you get serious readability issues. Given how other touchscreens using similar technology (hell, even the Nokia N700-N800 series tablets) don't demonstrate this level of glare and clarity problems, even if they are using TFT LEDs, it suggests that the materials that Sony's using aren't the most optimal ones for reducing glare.

It actually reminds me of the first-generation Xbox controllers, which appeared to have been designed for 6'3-tall Caucasian males with larger hands, reflecting the original designers' assumptions that everyone who'd use an Xbox would be just like them... and failing to take into account other body-types, children, women, and so forth. Those sorts of assumptions need to be examined, by the customers if not by the companies who make those boneheaded decisions, if only so they can be brought forth and addressed by someone - like their competitors, if not those companies themselves. Otherwise Microsoft would still be bundling those big-ass controllers with the Xbox360, instead of the S-type inspired controllers they come with today...

This doesn't fix the PRS-600's very real issues, but at least by gathering data and looking at why they work for some people and not others is a more useful exercise than complaining that they blew it with the PRS-600... which is definitely the case with the PRS-300, IMO. No memory slots + smaller screen is a bigger issue in my books. Especially when there are other readers the same size which managed to keep the expandable memory for the same price.

Of course, if they didn't shrink the PRS-300 while removing the memory slots, they may have ended up with another PRS-700 style albatross with the Touch Edition if a cheaper, yet still very usable alternative existed, had they not forced this level of differentiation through the pruning of features.

[ifonline]

Originally Posted by Haesslich

The reason I debate it, and look for causes, is because simply saying 'the PRS-600 is worse than the PRS-505' doesn't address the issue, and is the sort of statement that can be written off by Sony or anyone else as simple whining that is to be ignored as being unimportant.

...and your long, drawn out theories as to why the screen is better/worse than other devices is also going to be ignored by Sony. The only way to send a message to Sony (or any other manufacturer) is financially... if the product doesn't sell, then they will do something. However, as long as the product sells beyond a minimum threshold, then Sony is going to consider it a success.

And the closer sales get to that minimum threshold, the more Sony will consider your complaints whining and simply ignore them, no matter how detailed they are. Sorry, but money talks.

[dazzla]

Without getting into the discussion above, I checked out the 300, 505 and 600 yesterday at the Sony Style store (NYC).

The first thing that you notice is the contrast between both the 300/505 and the 600. The background is a much duller grey, it's clearly evident, the contrast simply isn't as good (we all know why, I'm just re-emphasising the point).

Secondly the glare, I imagine it'll be a problem for over 50% of potential Reader purchasers. The shop environment didn't help because there are lights everywhere, there was major glare at every angle, but hold the 300 and the 600 directly next to each other and pivot in the same way and it's night and day.

The 600 may be fine when there is a single controlled light source and you're sat in the right place holding it at the right angle but I don't want to have to think about that. I want my ebook reader to do one thing well and that is to display text to me as well as it can.

[Haesslich]

Originally Posted by ifonline

...and your long, drawn out theories as to why the screen is better/worse than other devices is also going to be ignored by Sony. The only way to send a message to Sony (or any other manufacturer) is financially... if the product doesn't sell, then they will do something. However, as long as the product sells beyond a minimum threshold, then Sony is going to consider it a success.

And the closer sales get to that minimum threshold, the more Sony will consider your complaints whining and simply ignore them, no matter how detailed they are. Sorry, but money talks.

In other words, your complaints and my comments are pointless. If money is the only thing they listen to. Whereas competitors who look at these complaints and my comments may find my responses useful and yours less so. As I noted myself, they can hit Sony in the pocketbook by addressing these issues in their own devices, by looking at the flaws in the competition.


For prospective customers, I usually find reviews or comments that highlight not only a flaw but why it seems to be there to be more influential than simple "too shiny, it's worse than the last one" statements when affecting the buy/do not buy decision. That's why reviewers like to point out the cons with more detailed explainations about why they didn't like (or were bugged by) something in a product.

In the end, the screen is shinier than the non-touch ones, and it doesn't have to be; other resistitive-based touchscreens don't shoe this issue, so there's something about the materials they used which caused this to occur. Why they didn't notice it in a second-gen touch device in the prototyping phase are probably due to the failure to account for how people who aren't Sony engineers use them in the real world... as most other second-generation or third-generation devices I see these days usually address issues in previous designs rather better (2g iPod's speaker, Kindle 2's button placement to fix accidental page turns, PS3 Slim fixing the bulk and heat issues, PSP2000 and 3000 improving screen visibility in bright light, CFL bulbs going from large round torus designs to smaller curly shapes to fit regular fixtures, the DS Lite being more ergonomic than the fat DS, etc).

If something doesn't work, it's usually better to figure out why, especially if you're trying to dissuade others from buying something.

[ifonline]

I'm not saying that comments/complains are pointless in general. What I was referring to in my responses was your suggestion that comments/complaints without substance are likely to be ignored by Sony. And my response to that is that while they may listen with more detailed comments/complaint, money talks louder than anything. So, if sales are good (and at or beyond where they wanted them to be), all the complaining in the world isn't likely to amount to much of anything because Sony can simply tell themselves that "hey, we sold X number of units with a profit of X dollars, so we did it just fine."

Take the 700 for example. I have absolutely no idea what the sales were like, but my guess is while they might have heard the complaints about the screen issues, they were more likely focused on the lack of sales (I assume, of course, that the sales didn't reach what they were expecting). So, they make some changes and sell the 600. It is better than the 700, but still not good enough in my opinion. However, if sales of the 600 hit their mark, I wouldn't expect Sony to be actively pursuing "fixes" when sales indicate that there is no real issue.

If something doesn't work, it's usually better to figure out why, especially if you're trying to dissuade others from buying something.

This I don't quite understand. Why is it better for me to figure out why something doesn't work? I don't care why it doesn't work, because I am neither an employee of Sony nor an employee of a competitor. I am an end user. So, if something doesn't work the way I want it to, I am going to find something else that does. I won't be wasting my time deconstructing the device just so I can post a blog entry or a forum post about why I think it doesn't work.

[Miss Understood]

If you are noticing glare on the 600 couldn't you use an anti-glare screen protector? Or would something like that affect the touch screen usability?

[Haesslich]

Originally Posted by ifonline

I'm not saying that comments/complains are pointless in general. What I was referring to in my responses was your suggestion that comments/complaints without substance are likely to be ignored by Sony. And my response to that is that while they may listen with more detailed comments/complaint, money talks louder than anything. So, if sales are good (and at or beyond where they wanted them to be), all the complaining in the world isn't likely to amount to much of anything because Sony can simply tell themselves that "hey, we sold X number of units with a profit of X dollars, so we did it just fine."

Take the 700 for example. I have absolutely no idea what the sales were like, but my guess is while they might have heard the complaints about the screen issues, they were more likely focused on the lack of sales (I assume, of course, that the sales didn't reach what they were expecting). So, they make some changes and sell the 600. It is better than the 700, but still not good enough in my opinion. However, if sales of the 600 hit their mark, I wouldn't expect Sony to be actively pursuing "fixes" when sales indicate that there is no real issue.

The PRS-700 was on the market less than eight months before getting canned; I suspect the PRS-600 was rushed in to replace it after the initial complaints, which may have indeed affected sales. "The sidelighting washes out the text" is a pretty definite, and valid complaint that can be easily demonstrated, and something that can be fixed. Being able to look at how people are using the devices, then pointing out why Sony's dropped the ball with regards to the design is something that can be used to persuade people to skip the PRS-600, because you can demonstrate the benefits are outweighed by the disadvantages, especially when you can show WHY some people don't have the same issues you do, so you sound more like a reasonable human being with a valid comment rather than a curmudgeon with an axe to grind.

Originally Posted by ifonline

This I don't quite understand. Why is it better for me to figure out why something doesn't work? I don't care why it doesn't work, because I am neither an employee of Sony nor an employee of a competitor. I am an end user. So, if something doesn't work the way I want it to, I am going to find something else that does. I won't be wasting my time deconstructing the device just so I can post a blog entry or a forum post about why I think it doesn't work.

The reason is one I've stated again and again, but I'll repeat myself in plain language: if you can point out why it works for some people but not for you, you sound like a normal human being with a real complaint rather than someone with an agenda or someone with an unreasonable bias whose brain goes into neutral the moment they see the keyword 'PRS-600' show up in a thread. If you want someone to not buy something, just saying 'it sucks' is less useful for a prospective buyer; saying 'Sony has some real glare issues with the PRS-600, since they appear to have intended it only to be read by someone holding it in one position in a very brightly-lit area without a lot of light fixtures that can cause glare' is better, and more likely to sway an opinion. That's why review sites like to go into detail about what makes a device 'broken', since otherwise they sound like a talk show radio host preaching to a brainless fanbase.

Plus, it might actually get read by someone who might deliver a better reader - either at Sony, or elsewhere. Someone else pointed out the iRex DR1000S doesn't have similar glare issues despite being a touchscreen-enabled device, confirming that this issue with glare is not inherent to the technology itself, but rather with what materials or methods Sony used to implement it, and something they haven't apparently changed from the PRS-700 (although without the sidelight layer that caused even more glare).

Either way, there are still issues with the reader, and just trotting out gems like this in any thread where people happen to disagree with your opinion... well, somewhat less helpful. To quote for irony's sake:

Originally Posted by ifonline

Why do people insist on believing that their experiences define what others must experience?

You've had a bad experience with the reader - I've had less of one in the time I got to use it, as did others. I was looking for commonalities within the community of people who didn't have issues - lighting conditions, how they held the readers, where they were trying to read, and so forth. Looking for why those people didn't have the issues that other people noted was my way of looking for things that could either be improved... or at least, provide data for those sitting on the fence so they could decide for themselves whether the disadvantages were enough to offset the improved CPU speed and slightly better PDF support over the PRS-300 or the PRS-505 before it.