![]() |
#76 | |
Addict
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Posts: 230
Karma: 334908
Join Date: Oct 2006
Device: multiple
|
Quote:
It definitely is NOT just about personal taste/preference. I think we can examine a work of art, whether it be a bookm, painting, or whatever- and determine if it is good or not, based on rational standards. This idea that the only judgement that can be passed on art is personal preference is wrong. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#77 | |
The Dank Side of the Moon
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Posts: 35,898
Karma: 119230421
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Denver, CO
Device: Kindle2; Kindle Fire
|
Quote:
If "we" is the majority then yes, "we" agree that he is a great writer. But in that comparison you have also equated great writer = good literature. Not sure that is necessarily the case. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#78 | |
Addict
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Posts: 230
Karma: 334908
Join Date: Oct 2006
Device: multiple
|
Quote:
The Nazis thought that their institutionalized racism and murder was ethically proper- because they believed in it properness, was it truly proper? Racism was a cultural norm in that society- so it was okay? |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#79 |
The Dank Side of the Moon
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Posts: 35,898
Karma: 119230421
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Denver, CO
Device: Kindle2; Kindle Fire
|
You clearly don't understand that anything a majority of a group decides is the norm for that group.
For those cultures, those groups, at those times, those things were true, they were the norms for those groups. There is no such thing as absolute, objective ethics only what a particular group at a particular time decides by consensus. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#80 | |
Addict
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Posts: 230
Karma: 334908
Join Date: Oct 2006
Device: multiple
|
Quote:
And this is where you are wrong- there are indeed objective ethics, moral right and wrong. Ethics by consensus is idiotic. And there are objective standards of aesthetics; just because "everyone thinks it is a good book" doesn't make it a good book. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#81 | |
The Dank Side of the Moon
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Posts: 35,898
Karma: 119230421
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Denver, CO
Device: Kindle2; Kindle Fire
|
Quote:
I'm NOT wrong. This has been argued countlessly and endlessly by philosophers and laymen alike. There is no way to prove that objective ethics/standards/norms/beliefs exist. This is nothing more than your belief, it is not mine. ![]() |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#82 | |
Grand Sorcerer
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Posts: 7,452
Karma: 7185064
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Linköpng, Sweden
Device: Kindle Voyage, Nexus 5, Kindle PW
|
Quote:
Also conclusions about moral philosophy can not be used directly on aesthetics. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#83 | |
Addict
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Posts: 230
Karma: 334908
Join Date: Oct 2006
Device: multiple
|
Quote:
Cultural relativity has indeed been argued about, and the relativists lost. The position that there can be no objective standards in aesthetics leads to equally silly pronouncements about the arts as the belief in cultural relativity would lkead one to cvlaim that "It was okay for the Mayans to sacrifice virgins" and "It was okay for the Nazis to exterminate Jews". I mean hey- it was a norm so it was right, eh? |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#84 |
The Dank Side of the Moon
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Posts: 35,898
Karma: 119230421
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Denver, CO
Device: Kindle2; Kindle Fire
|
Now you are confusing individual beliefs/ethics/actions with societal norms/ethics/beliefs. This is exactly what I meant by you don't understand a societal norm or consensus. Just because it is a norm or consensus does not mean that every individual agrees with it.
Again the second part of your statement is nothing more than your belief that it is silly. To you it is, to that culture it was the norm. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#85 | |
Addict
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Posts: 230
Karma: 334908
Join Date: Oct 2006
Device: multiple
|
Quote:
If relativity is true, aesthetics doesn't exist- everyone's "opinion" is equally valid. The nimrod who flips burgers for Mickey D has an opinion about a particular piece of music, and it is every bit as valid as the opinion of a music historian or classically trained pianist. Heaven forbid that we would dare to elevate the works of Shakespeare over those of Danielle Steele or Harold Robbins. Let's forget about supporting museums and art galleries, because nothing has any intrinsic merit. While we're at it, let's toss out all of the works by Raphael and Manet and break up all of those old Greek statues- most people in our society would agree that Norman Rockwell is a much better artist (his stuff looks better- more "realistic"). |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#86 | |
Addict
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Posts: 230
Karma: 334908
Join Date: Oct 2006
Device: multiple
|
Quote:
These things may have been the norm, but they were WRONG. Take the example of the Nazis and their institutionalized racism- the question that I posed was not whether it was a norm- but whether it was Right or Wrong, good or evil. In the case of the Nazis, their norms were definitely evil. As with aesthetics- we are not asking whether or not people like something, but whether that somnething is good or bad. Just because someone likes something has no bearing on whether that something is good or bad. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#87 |
Wizard
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Posts: 4,395
Karma: 1358132
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: UK
Device: Palm TX, CyBook Gen3
|
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#88 |
The Dank Side of the Moon
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Posts: 35,898
Karma: 119230421
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Denver, CO
Device: Kindle2; Kindle Fire
|
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#89 | |
Addict
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Posts: 230
Karma: 334908
Join Date: Oct 2006
Device: multiple
|
Quote:
And Norman Rockwell is a better painter than Picasso because more people like Rockwell's paintings than Picasso's. And it's okay to sacrifice virgins, and it's okay to keep slaves- all depends on your opinion! There is nothing intrinsically wrong with any of these acts, and nothing intrinsically wrong with marching people off to die in the gas chambers- if they are Jews or gypsies....... Does something seem not quite right with these conclusions? |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#90 |
The Dank Side of the Moon
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Posts: 35,898
Karma: 119230421
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Denver, CO
Device: Kindle2; Kindle Fire
|
Since this has been round this loop three times already, I will not comment further on it. If you'd like to get back to the topic of the thread -- books and book reviews -- I'm all ears.
|
![]() |
![]() |