Seperating the Wheat from the Chaff - Page 4

Moejoe · 09-06-2009, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kennyc

No I'm not. You seem to have quite a chip on your shoulder about the publishing industry. I don't suppose you've been rejected a few times, eh?

The opposite, actually, but they wanted what I couldn't give, and that was.. an inch

LDBoblo · 09-06-2009, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sparrow

Nah, I am not drawn into the story - I have no idea what is being burned, or why. At this stage I'm still unengaged - we could be going anywhere, it achieves nothing beyond being yer standard (hackneyed?) teaser opener.

The sort of first sentence SF in particular is replete in.

It can be contextualized and seen as beautiful once the main content has been digested, but I agree that it as an independent line is unconvincing, and generally suggests a contrived style in modern literature.

I liked Bradbury but I can't say that I liked it in the first pages.

kennyc · 09-06-2009, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moejoe

The opposite, actually, but they wanted what I couldn't give, and that was.. an inch

I can understand that.

dreams · 09-06-2009, 02:52 PM

Thank you all for the discussion, views, and laughs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lilac_jive

One man's trash is one man's treasure

Oh, I like that lilac!

Also:

The mass does not represent the some (or even the one)

Making money does not always mean producing quality

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sparrow

They both seem pretty iffy to me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moejoe

Iffy!!! Iffy!*?!

Iffy?!!!??

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bilbo1967

So, just to be clear then, you don't agree with Sparrow?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moejoe

Well, to put it succinctly; no

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bilbo1967

I was always good at picking up on those little subtle hints.

Quote:

Originally Posted by desertgrandma

Thanks for the laugh. It made it abundantly clear to me why I rarely read current "best sellers", unless by an author I already am familiar with. And then I sometimes wonder why I bother.

There is just so much wonderful reading material out there, published years ago, by those who knew how to write. I'm also finding independent authors, thanks to this site, who are more worthy than the claptrap that passes as literary material today.

I agree completely...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moejoe

The opposite, actually, but they wanted what I couldn't give, and that was.. an inch

Sparrow · 09-06-2009, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LDBoblo

It can be contextualized and seen as beautiful once the main content has been digested, but I agree that it as an independent line is unconvincing, and generally suggests a contrived style in modern literature.

I think that's right.

My favourite opening line is from Robertson Davies:

"Parlabane is back."

We're off and running. Already we have three characters, we know something about Parlabane - he's (and somehow we know it's a 'he') returned, and his return is significant enough to warrant comment. The fact that it's not embellished indicates there's a lot unsaid, that doesn't need saying between the characters having the conversation. There's a history between them, the use of a surname suggests it may not have been an amicable one,and his return not entirely welcome. All this from the first three words!

That's a great opening line!!

(imho)

BearMountainBooks · 09-06-2009, 08:12 PM

I know not everyone wants to read reviews, but here's a couple of reviewers of e-books that might help with the "sorting."

http://redadept.wordpress.com/ Red Adept reviews mostly indie books, although she reviews anything she reads, so you'll find commercial reads on there as well. Warning: She's a kindle reader, so all of what she reads is available on Kindle--it may not be available for other readers.

And someone I found through this forum:

http://booksontheknob.blogspot.com/

She posts other news too, but lists free books and cheap books and this and that.

I haven't read this one, but I think it includes reviews as well as commentary on ebooks and the industry:

http://www.amazon.com/-/e/B002E0NBIW

Maria

kennyc · 09-06-2009, 08:31 PM

Thanks Maria. That's exactly the kinds of things that will help!

Steven Lyle Jordan · 09-06-2009, 09:12 PM

When I first approached publishers (and agents) about my books, I was not rejected. In fact, I was told not to bother to submit anything. Anything at all. They were "full up," they didn't even want to see anything new.

The traditional publishing business has become too insular and exclusive to those who are already on the inside to even allow those on the outside a chance to get in. It's a "castle" mentality: Those on the inside consider themselves the elite, those on the outside are considered to be peons, and the longer the elite stay inside and keep the peons outside, the better off they'll be. This is one of the main reasons self-publishing has come so far... or did you really think all of those self-published novels were from people who have already been told they are no good?

In the past, those who were summarily ignored by the industry had no choice but to twist in the wind. Today, they have the means to put their own material out. Quite a bit of it has never been seen by the traditional publishers, by their own choice. Assuming all of those self-publishers are no good, simply because a traditional publisher hasn't vetted and altered their material to maximize profit, is a mistake.

That means we need new ways of separating the wheat from the chaff. Sites like this one, commercial e-book sellers and other sites where e-book aficionados meet provide that service... you only have to find the voices that resonate with your own, just as you did in the past with book and newspaper reviews. And of course there's word of mouth. Don't assume e-book readers are all idiots whose opinion is not worth anything. Find the ones who like what you like, and go with their recommendations.

There's good stuff out there, and there's crap... just like with printed books. But it is possible to find the good stuff. It just takes some effort.

kennyc · 09-06-2009, 09:46 PM

Great post Steve and all seems true to me. I think you're right about the full-up and insiders/outsiders as well, though there are some cracks in the castle walls methinks.

nomesque · 09-06-2009, 10:07 PM

Addition to Maria's recs - the eFiction Book Club? They don't only review ebooks, and they've only reviewed a few so far, but this sort of thing is a step in the right direction, I think.

One other recommendation I'd make - learn to critique reviews on ebook listings. Look at the reviews for a book you're interested in, and judge if they're a) sincere and b) from the sort of person who'd enjoy the same type of books you would.

Many ebooks seem to have bogus reviews on them these days, both negative and positive - but if you read carefully, you can generally work out if they've been written carefully and thoughtfully, or tossed off in a fit of passion (no double-entendre intended).

One thing I'd like to see on Smashwords is a 'most reviews' sort mechanism - very generally speaking, the ebooks with more reviews will tend to be worth at least considering.

doreenjoy · 09-06-2009, 10:49 PM

So who do you propose would be fit to decide what is "trash" and what is "worthy?"

One man's trash is another's treasure.

LDBoblo · 09-07-2009, 12:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doreenjoy

So who do you propose would be fit to decide what is "trash" and what is "worthy?"

One man's trash is another's treasure.

I suppose a landfill worker would identify common trash and separate it from incidental trash that may find appreciation.

We just need to do a little trading places (anyone remember that Eddie Murphy and Dan Aykroyd movie?) between the landfill sorters and the publishing agents. Seems just, doesn't it?

doreenjoy · 09-07-2009, 03:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LDBoblo

I suppose a landfill worker would identify common trash and separate it from incidental trash that may find appreciation.

We just need to do a little trading places (anyone remember that Eddie Murphy and Dan Aykroyd movie?) between the landfill sorters and the publishing agents. Seems just, doesn't it?

You're missing my point. Everyone has a different opinion about what constitutes "trash", which is why judgements about "good" and "bad" books will always be subjective.

For proof, do a search on Dan Brown. He certainly has devoted fans, and those who think he is not worthy of publication.

Elfwreck · 09-07-2009, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doreenjoy

So who do you propose would be fit to decide what is "trash" and what is "worthy?"

One man's trash is another's treasure.

That's why a good review doesn't just say "I loved this book" or "I hated this book;" it explains why, so readers with different tastes can decide if they're likely to be interested.

A review of a romance book might say "I liked the slow buildup of tension, and the detailed interactions with other characters;" readers who like those will probably enjoy the book; readers who prefer hot-and-heavy action and no extraneous characters will move on. OTOH, a review that says "I didn't like this book; the vampire were too godlike in their powers, and I got tired of every woman in the story falling to her knees in lust with them," would be a positive note for some readers.

kennyc · 09-07-2009, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

That's why a good review doesn't just say "I loved this book" or "I hated this book;" it explains why, so readers with different tastes can decide if they're likely to be interested.

A review of a romance book might say "I liked the slow buildup of tension, and the detailed interactions with other characters;" readers who like those will probably enjoy the book; readers who prefer hot-and-heavy action and no extraneous characters will move on. OTOH, a review that says "I didn't like this book; the vampire were too godlike in their powers, and I got tired of every woman in the story falling to her knees in lust with them," would be a positive note for some readers.

Exactly, as well as multiple reviews/reviewers to see if there is a consensus, points of agreement or disagreement.

09-06-2009, 10:07 PM	#55
nomesque Snooty Bestselling Author Posts: 1,485 Karma: 1000000 Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Ipswich, QLD, Australia Device: PRS-650	Addition to Maria's recs - the eFiction Book Club? They don't only review ebooks, and they've only reviewed a few so far, but this sort of thing is a step in the right direction, I think. One other recommendation I'd make - learn to critique reviews on ebook listings. Look at the reviews for a book you're interested in, and judge if they're a) sincere and b) from the sort of person who'd enjoy the same type of books you would. Many ebooks seem to have bogus reviews on them these days, both negative and positive - but if you read carefully, you can generally work out if they've been written carefully and thoughtfully, or tossed off in a fit of passion (no double-entendre intended). One thing I'd like to see on Smashwords is a 'most reviews' sort mechanism - very generally speaking, the ebooks with more reviews will tend to be worth at least considering. Last edited by nomesque; 09-07-2009 at 12:04 AM. Reason: cos every now and then I get html and bbcode muddled... :smack:

09-06-2009, 08:12 PM	#51
BearMountainBooks Maria Schneider Posts: 3,746 Karma: 26439330 Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Near Austin, Texas Device: 3g Kindle Keyboard	I know not everyone wants to read reviews, but here's a couple of reviewers of e-books that might help with the "sorting." http://redadept.wordpress.com/ Red Adept reviews mostly indie books, although she reviews anything she reads, so you'll find commercial reads on there as well. Warning: She's a kindle reader, so all of what she reads is available on Kindle--it may not be available for other readers. And someone I found through this forum: http://booksontheknob.blogspot.com/ She posts other news too, but lists free books and cheap books and this and that. I haven't read this one, but I think it includes reviews as well as commentary on ebooks and the industry: http://www.amazon.com/-/e/B002E0NBIW Maria

09-06-2009, 08:31 PM	#52
kennyc The Dank Side of the Moon Posts: 35,897 Karma: 119230421 Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Denver, CO Device: Kindle2; Kindle Fire	Thanks Maria. That's exactly the kinds of things that will help!

09-06-2009, 09:12 PM	#53
Steven Lyle Jordan Grand Sorcerer Posts: 8,478 Karma: 5171130 Join Date: Jan 2006 Device: none	When I first approached publishers (and agents) about my books, I was not rejected. In fact, I was told not to bother to submit anything. Anything at all. They were "full up," they didn't even want to see anything new. The traditional publishing business has become too insular and exclusive to those who are already on the inside to even allow those on the outside a chance to get in. It's a "castle" mentality: Those on the inside consider themselves the elite, those on the outside are considered to be peons, and the longer the elite stay inside and keep the peons outside, the better off they'll be. This is one of the main reasons self-publishing has come so far... or did you really think all of those self-published novels were from people who have already been told they are no good? In the past, those who were summarily ignored by the industry had no choice but to twist in the wind. Today, they have the means to put their own material out. Quite a bit of it has never been seen by the traditional publishers, by their own choice. Assuming all of those self-publishers are no good, simply because a traditional publisher hasn't vetted and altered their material to maximize profit, is a mistake. That means we need new ways of separating the wheat from the chaff. Sites like this one, commercial e-book sellers and other sites where e-book aficionados meet provide that service... you only have to find the voices that resonate with your own, just as you did in the past with book and newspaper reviews. And of course there's word of mouth. Don't assume e-book readers are all idiots whose opinion is not worth anything. Find the ones who like what you like, and go with their recommendations. There's good stuff out there, and there's crap... just like with printed books. But it is possible to find the good stuff. It just takes some effort.

09-06-2009, 09:46 PM	#54
kennyc The Dank Side of the Moon Posts: 35,897 Karma: 119230421 Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Denver, CO Device: Kindle2; Kindle Fire	Great post Steve and all seems true to me. I think you're right about the full-up and insiders/outsiders as well, though there are some cracks in the castle walls methinks.

09-06-2009, 10:49 PM	#56
doreenjoy 01000100 01001010 Posts: 1,889 Karma: 2400000 Join Date: Mar 2009 Device: Polyamorous	So who do you propose would be fit to decide what is "trash" and what is "worthy?" One man's trash is another's treasure.