Seriousness American Health Care - Page 10

formerroadie · 09-02-2009, 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnClif

...and healthcare 'reform' (as opposed to true reform).

Here in the USA we have government-run healthcare programs: Medicare, Medicaid, and the Veterans' Administration (VA) for military and ex-military who are retired. Medicare and Medicaid are going broke. The VA has an unfortunately well-deserved reputation for delivering substandard medical care... and it's going broke, too. The less said about the pathetic government-provided health care on Indian ('native American') reservations, the better.

Ok, why do you think they are going broke? Well, politicians have stolen from the coffers for other business and that has happened primarily under conservative white houses. Also, the elder population in this country is growing huge while the younger generation is not, in fact, it is far less than the elder. Now, if you put everyone in the pool together, that will not be the case in terms of having financial difficulty.

Also, there is an incredibly high approval rating of medicare by seniors. Sorry man, you're wrong on this one and the talking point is so abused it's not even funny.

It's rare that hospitals wave the bills and people are often stuck with the $40,000 bill or more. Dude, that is so one instance. The fact is, the conservatives have lied, cheated and propagandized an idea that has worked really well in other countries. We are the US. We used to lead and now we are so far behind (not only on health care).

You also pointed out why a universal system is better. If a Tylenol is $70 per person because of the ones handed out for free, placing everyone in the same pool would reduce the cost due to the mass of people.

Tort reform will do nothing. It is a state's power not a federal power to prosecute local medical malpractice and insurance complaints. Sorry man, that will do diddly. Frankly the states have had their chance to make good on that and some have. In some states, tort reform has lowered the cost of court cases and yet the health insurance industry has lowered no costs. Big surprise... they are greedy. They don't care about anyone.

Catastrophic health insurance will do nothing. A lot of what we pay for is people showing up at the ER with the Flu. It's ridiculous. Under your idea, we would still be paying tons of money for the same crap.

So why do countries with both a public and private option still have private options? If the fact that a public option is put into place will kill private companies, why does it not happen everywhere else?

Sorry, I have no patience with this "you're stealing from me." Americans can be so selfish it drives me nuts. Frankly, I say too bad. You can help your neighbor and actually live with the knowledge that you can help others. It's a great thing to live in a more just society. I'm not going to cry that junior can't buy one more ps3 game because his parents had to pay a bit more in taxes (which they will be using as health care themselves unless they go with a private option). The fact is, places like socialist countries in Europe are doing far better financially and are far more stable than our own country. This whole idea that we are this hyper-individualistic group of people is bogus (it is not based in reality). Frankly, one who consumes a lot more than another already affects the population. For example, I have always chosen to drive a low mile per gallon car. People who drive gas guzzling SUV's drive the price of gas up for me. They say it is their free right to shaft everyone else. Well, in regards to health insurance, it should never be that way. We need to take care of our own. How come we can build the biggest most insane, stupid military complex in the world and give billions to Iraq and Afghanistan, but the second we want to provide for our own citizens, it's steeling and evil?

The health insurance companies are greedy. They are the bad guys and they are bribing politicians to keep them in business so they can continue to take our money, raise prices, and kill our economy while they pay their CEO's gajillions of dollars. Unlike other commodities, health care should NEVER be for profit.

Ok, done.... breath... breath

formerroadie · 09-02-2009, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angst

As close as I can tell, they are referring to long waiting lists for some procedures. The procedures, (I think MRIs are given as an example), are not available "on demand." When your position on a waiting list corresponds to your need for the procedure, rather than your ability to pay for the procedure, this constitutes rationing.

It's political spin mostly.

It's all about Americans being a fast food nation.... instant gratification or nothing. Sad really.

PKFFW · 09-02-2009, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnClif

Many talk about health care and how it should be considered as a right that everyone is entitled to. The problem with this is that, unlike the negative rights that are guaranteed in our Constitution, positive rights like the right to health care and the right to employment put a financial burden on others. Is it right to forcibly confiscate money (which really represents a portion of our lives, the time we spent earning that money) from one person and give its value to another? After all, taxes aren't voluntary. If you don't pay them, the IRS comes to collect, with guns... and they will shoot you if you resist. Sounds more like robbery than charity, doesn't it? And, if health care is a right, then what about food and water? We all MUST have sustenance daily or we will die. Why aren't these free? The answer is, a need does not create a right, and redistributing wealth even for a good cause is unconstitutional. This is the principled reason why many are against government-run health care; the ends do not justify the means.

"No man is an island"

You live in a society and as such have responsibilities as well as rights. That is something that so many seem to overlook and conveniently forget.

Just as an example, and I don't know your driving habits, maybe your neighbour doesn't own a car or use the roads and you do. Should you have to pay higher taxes for that? Your house may be broken into more often than your neighbour. Should you pay higher taxes to pay for more police?

Here's another, real world example.

Farmers generally live in rural, less populated areas. Providing health care services to such areas is more expensive per person. So, I assume you would argue, that is their choice and they should have to pay all associated costs through higher premiums. So they are left with the choice of paying higher premiums or leaving their farm and moving to a city so as to pay less premiums.

So who would provide the food for your society if all the farmers decided they couldn't afford the higher premiums and moved to the city instead?

I guess we just thank our lucky stars that there are people who like to live in the country and work a farm and don't really question where the food in the supermarket comes from. We don't ever let ourselves think that without farmers our society would go to shit. We convince ourselves that "I shouldn't be forced to pay for someone elses choices" even if those choices are what allows our society to continue to function. We happily take advantage of others for our own good but scream about our "rights" if we are ever expected to fork out for something we don't think we should.

Cheers,
PKFFW

fbrII · 09-02-2009, 09:27 PM

There are 43 million Americans on a real long waiting list now and there are 3,300 healthcare (unintentional bad joke) lobbyist in Washington or about six lobbyist for every congressman, trying to insure (another bad pun) they never get care.

It's estimated that the healthcare (there's that joke again) industry has now spent a quarter billion (yes, starts with a b) fighting healthcare reform.

Makes you wonder why Americans pay the highest rates for Insurance and receive the poorest care of any of the so called western countries?

Shunt1 · 09-03-2009, 12:33 AM

[QUOTE=JohnClif;577011...
I believe most Americans, would support health care reform that included letting insurance companies compete across state lines (they can't do this currently), include tort reform that caps damages to real damages only (no pain and suffering), and I would even support a subsidized catastrophic health care option for everyone (a policy with $2k deductible, paid for by a $50 per taxpayer per year tax regardless of income, but that covers everything else, so if you get in an accident or get cancer you're covered). This eliminates much of the costs associated with the current health care system... people going to hospital emergency rooms for non-emergency treatment because they don't have insurance... yet covering everyone against the cost of catastrophic illness. I'm sure the insurance companies would step up to fill the gap between 0 and $2k. To me, this is about the best we can hope for. The government also needs to streamline Medicare and Medicaid paperwork because the overhead adds considerably to the price of a patient visit ($30 or more just to process the paperwork per visit).
[/QUOTE]

That is the best summary that I have read so far, and if proposed by the Senate and House, I would support this type of health care reform.

We all know that things must be changed, but most people who support this current reform, do not fully understand the implications.

How about creating two heath care plans, one for conservitives and the other for liberals? You must officially register for one or the other. No sitting on the fence, or you will end up paying for both plans.

Liberals, if you want free health care for everyone in your plan, then everyone who has registered for this plan, must share the costs.

Conservitives, if you prefer paying for your own personal health care plan, you will not be allowed to obtain anything above the contract that you have agreed upon. At the same time, you will not have to pay for the Liberal's plan, since that was not your choice.

That is that fantastic aspect of a free market. YOU HAVE A CHOICE!

Shunt1 · 09-03-2009, 01:02 AM

Three years ago, I crashed my airplane and my spine was shattered. The hospital costs were well over $500,000 to repare my spine.

It took me over six months before I could walk once again.

Yes, this outstanding health care was obtained for a simple "working stiff" on a "Blue Cross / Blue Shield" plan, which was provided by the company that I work for. The company does not actually pay for this health care plan, since the actual costs are deducted from my paycheck each month.

For a cost of $300 per month, this "horrible American health care" was able to fully repair me. The doctors and nurses were absolutly outstanding, and I could not ask for anything better.

Today, I can fly airplanes once again.

Shunt1 · 09-03-2009, 01:22 AM

In the year 2000, my wife was in a horrible car accident. Both of her leg bones were thrust into her hip, which shattered into many pieces.

Once again, my wife was covered by this "Horrible American Heath Care" provided though her company, but paid out of her monthly paycheck.

Since her hip was totally destroyed, it was replaced with a metalic replica. Her leg bones are a rather interesting combination of metal and bone, but they have been restored.

It took her over two years to walk again, but the hospital costs were fully covered.

Liberals, if you want your own "Free" health care plan, then go for it.

Just keep me out of it!

PKFFW · 09-03-2009, 02:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shunt1

Three years ago, I crashed my airplane and my spine was shattered. The hospital costs were well over $500,000 to repare my spine.

It took me over six months before I could walk once again.

Yes, this outstanding health care was obtained for a simple "working stiff" on a "Blue Cross / Blue Shield" plan, which was provided by the company that I work for. The company does not actually pay for this health care plan, since the actual costs are deducted from my paycheck each month.

For a cost of $300 per month, this "horrible American health care" was able to fully repair me. The doctors and nurses were absolutly outstanding, and I could not ask for anything better.

Today, I can fly airplanes once again.

If you take the time to read the thread you will see that pretty much everyone agrees that if you have the money to pay for it, US health care is very very good.

What some are suggesting is "horrible" about it is not the standard of care, it is the fact that only those with the money to pay for it have real access to it.

How about those who can't pay the $300 a month? I'm not talking about junkie crack whores or welfare cheats either. I'm talking about those who work hard in low paying jobs who just can't afford it. Single mothers whose husbands have run off with a younger women leaving them with 3 kids and 3 jobs to pay the bills? What about small business owners doing their best to provide for their families and employees? Waiters/watresses who scrap out a living on tips because their wage is so pathetic? Farmers? And lets not forget all those people now unemployed because of the unhindered greed and bad business practices by the banks that caused the GFC. Now they all have no health insurance through no fault of their own.

I know, I know........not your problem, they should get a better job right?

Nice to live in a world where the socio-economic reality doesn't really have any effect on you isn't it?

Cheers,
PKFFW

Shunt1 · 09-03-2009, 03:10 AM

Been there, done that!

When I retired after 20 years in the Army, I no longer had heath insurance for my family. When my new civilian job could barely pay for rent and food, health care became a risk.

When my daughter got injured and needed immediate care, we took her to the local hospital. She got the care that was required.

Yes, we had to pay for that care, but it was there for my daughter when she needed it the most.

Funny story:
A few years later, first wife and I got divorced. My fantastic second wife for 23 years now, was the NURSE THAT TOOK CARE OF MY DAUGHTER that day!

Even when I did not have insurance, medical care has always been there when I or my family needed it.

The only debate is rather simple:
Who pays for it?

Salgueiros · 09-03-2009, 03:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shunt1

In the year 2000, my wife was in a horrible car accident. Both of her leg bones were thrust into her hip, which shattered into many pieces.

Once again, my wife was covered by this "Horrible American Heath Care" provided though her company, but paid out of her monthly paycheck.

Since her hip was totally destroyed, it was replaced with a metalic replica. Her leg bones are a rather interesting combination of metal and bone, but they have been restored.

It took her over two years to walk again, but the hospital costs were fully covered.

Liberals, if you want your own "Free" health care plan, then go for it.

Just keep me out of it!

And what makes you say that you and your wife would not be treated in a national health system the same way? I lived in Europe almost 30 years and i must say i have never seen any patient being refused treatment, the equipment and technology seems pretty much the same, and the doctors are very competent. We see new treatment techniques, procedures and equipment being invented and developed every year there, so i don-t think the fact of being a public service makes it less technologically advanced...

I think there is a lot of prejudice and big money at stake.

Shunt1 · 09-03-2009, 03:34 AM

And what makes you say that you and your wife would not be treated in a national health system the same way?

Actually, that is an outstanding question and needs an honest reply.

My wife and I are SCUBA divers and travel around the world. If we have a major medical problem in another country, we are responsible for paying for that health care. Your "free" health care will not apply to us Americans when we need medical help in your country.

As SCUBA divers, we know that this is a major problem, so we purchase extra health insurance to cover us in this type of situation. The insurance company knows that this is a very low risk, so the cost is almost minimal. So minimal, that I can not even remember how much D.A.N. costs per month.

SCUBA related injuries can be very expensive and will require immediate medical help, or death will result.

That is the fantastic thing about a free market: If there is a need, someone will create a company to provide that service. And in a free market, the lowest price will always win.

HarryT · 09-03-2009, 03:43 AM

Shunt,

I think that what the previous poster is asking is "had you lived in a country where healthcare is state-provided, why do you believe that, in similar circumstances to the ones you describe, you would have been treated more poorly than you were under your current system?"

With respect, the fact that you've received good care under your system does not mean that alternate systems would have treated you less well, does it? I personally, and all my family, have always received superb care from our NHS.

Shunt1 · 09-03-2009, 03:57 AM

had you lived in a country where healthcare is state-provided, why do you believe that, in similar circumstances to the ones you describe, you would have been treated more poorly than you were under your current system?"

Who is paying for this?

Seriously, with the type of injuries that my wife and I have both suffered since 2000, we are talking about well over $1,000,000 for only two people.

Would government health care actually provide that medical quality, at such a minimal personal cost?

Remember, in America, we do have government health care!

I served in the Army for 20 years, and could go to any V.A Hospital for "free" medical care at any time, since I am a veteran.

Personally, even I am not that STUPID!

Today, I can walk, because I did not go to a V.A. Hospital for "free" medical care.

Care to debate that topic?

Ask any person who has earned their time with the military, and how good that government V.A. Hospical care can be.

Liberals can do anything that they want, as long as they keep me out of it! Why is that concept so hard to understand?

HarryT · 09-03-2009, 04:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shunt1

Who is paying for this?

Seriously, with the type of injuries that my wife and I have both suffered since 2000, we are talking about well over $1,000,000 for only two people.

The NHS would have provided it at no cost to your family.

Quote:

Today, I can walk, because I did not go to a V.A. Hospital for "free" medical care.

Care to debate that topic?

Certainly - happy to do so.

Quote:

Ask any person who has earned their time with the military, and how good that government V.A. Hospical care can be.

You mean a person such as a close friend of mine, who, while serving in the British army in Afghanistan, was extremely severely injured by an IED, and received absolutely superb healthcare and rehabilitation. He's now back in the army, in a desk job.

Quote:

Liberals can do anything that they want, as long as they keep me out of it! Why is that concept so hard to understand?

Why do you use the word "liberal" as though it were an insult? Do you believe that having moderate political views is bad?

Salgueiros · 09-03-2009, 04:30 AM

Thanks, Harry T

Shunt,

My uncle was injured beadly in war in africa and he not only needed care to treat his many injuries but also required continuous care throughout his life. I am pretty sure the cost was very high and yet nobody raised any question about it, and i am pretty sure the standard of treatment was exactly the same as the treatment the rest of the patients had in the hospitals he was. Precisely because since all contribute to it, all can benefit from it, no matter his or her condition. What is the fear?

Government health might be bad in US in some cases because it reflects the level of investment the country puts in it.

09-03-2009, 12:33 AM	#140
Shunt1 Enthusiast Posts: 31 Karma: 112 Join Date: Nov 2008 Device: Kindle, PRS-700	[QUOTE=JohnClif;577011... I believe most Americans, would support health care reform that included letting insurance companies compete across state lines (they can't do this currently), include tort reform that caps damages to real damages only (no pain and suffering), and I would even support a subsidized catastrophic health care option for everyone (a policy with $2k deductible, paid for by a $50 per taxpayer per year tax regardless of income, but that covers everything else, so if you get in an accident or get cancer you're covered). This eliminates much of the costs associated with the current health care system... people going to hospital emergency rooms for non-emergency treatment because they don't have insurance... yet covering everyone against the cost of catastrophic illness. I'm sure the insurance companies would step up to fill the gap between 0 and $2k. To me, this is about the best we can hope for. The government also needs to streamline Medicare and Medicaid paperwork because the overhead adds considerably to the price of a patient visit ($30 or more just to process the paperwork per visit). [/QUOTE] That is the best summary that I have read so far, and if proposed by the Senate and House, I would support this type of health care reform. We all know that things must be changed, but most people who support this current reform, do not fully understand the implications. How about creating two heath care plans, one for conservitives and the other for liberals? You must officially register for one or the other. No sitting on the fence, or you will end up paying for both plans. Liberals, if you want free health care for everyone in your plan, then everyone who has registered for this plan, must share the costs. Conservitives, if you prefer paying for your own personal health care plan, you will not be allowed to obtain anything above the contract that you have agreed upon. At the same time, you will not have to pay for the Liberal's plan, since that was not your choice. That is that fantastic aspect of a free market. YOU HAVE A CHOICE! Last edited by Shunt1; 09-03-2009 at 12:38 AM.

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09-02-2009, 09:27 PM	#139
fbrII F. BluDevil Posts: 428 Karma: 1152548 Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: St. Louis Missouri Device: Pocketbook Inkpad3 pro, Kobo Libra, Kindle Paperwhite	There are 43 million Americans on a real long waiting list now and there are 3,300 healthcare (unintentional bad joke) lobbyist in Washington or about six lobbyist for every congressman, trying to insure (another bad pun) they never get care. It's estimated that the healthcare (there's that joke again) industry has now spent a quarter billion (yes, starts with a b) fighting healthcare reform. Makes you wonder why Americans pay the highest rates for Insurance and receive the poorest care of any of the so called western countries?

09-03-2009, 01:02 AM	#141
Shunt1 Enthusiast Posts: 31 Karma: 112 Join Date: Nov 2008 Device: Kindle, PRS-700	Three years ago, I crashed my airplane and my spine was shattered. The hospital costs were well over $500,000 to repare my spine. It took me over six months before I could walk once again. Yes, this outstanding health care was obtained for a simple "working stiff" on a "Blue Cross / Blue Shield" plan, which was provided by the company that I work for. The company does not actually pay for this health care plan, since the actual costs are deducted from my paycheck each month. For a cost of $300 per month, this "horrible American health care" was able to fully repair me. The doctors and nurses were absolutly outstanding, and I could not ask for anything better. Today, I can fly airplanes once again.

09-03-2009, 01:22 AM	#142
Shunt1 Enthusiast Posts: 31 Karma: 112 Join Date: Nov 2008 Device: Kindle, PRS-700	In the year 2000, my wife was in a horrible car accident. Both of her leg bones were thrust into her hip, which shattered into many pieces. Once again, my wife was covered by this "Horrible American Heath Care" provided though her company, but paid out of her monthly paycheck. Since her hip was totally destroyed, it was replaced with a metalic replica. Her leg bones are a rather interesting combination of metal and bone, but they have been restored. It took her over two years to walk again, but the hospital costs were fully covered. Liberals, if you want your own "Free" health care plan, then go for it. Just keep me out of it!

09-03-2009, 03:10 AM	#144
Shunt1 Enthusiast Posts: 31 Karma: 112 Join Date: Nov 2008 Device: Kindle, PRS-700	Been there, done that! When I retired after 20 years in the Army, I no longer had heath insurance for my family. When my new civilian job could barely pay for rent and food, health care became a risk. When my daughter got injured and needed immediate care, we took her to the local hospital. She got the care that was required. Yes, we had to pay for that care, but it was there for my daughter when she needed it the most. Funny story: A few years later, first wife and I got divorced. My fantastic second wife for 23 years now, was the NURSE THAT TOOK CARE OF MY DAUGHTER that day! Even when I did not have insurance, medical care has always been there when I or my family needed it. The only debate is rather simple: Who pays for it?

09-03-2009, 03:34 AM	#146
Shunt1 Enthusiast Posts: 31 Karma: 112 Join Date: Nov 2008 Device: Kindle, PRS-700	And what makes you say that you and your wife would not be treated in a national health system the same way? Actually, that is an outstanding question and needs an honest reply. My wife and I are SCUBA divers and travel around the world. If we have a major medical problem in another country, we are responsible for paying for that health care. Your "free" health care will not apply to us Americans when we need medical help in your country. As SCUBA divers, we know that this is a major problem, so we purchase extra health insurance to cover us in this type of situation. The insurance company knows that this is a very low risk, so the cost is almost minimal. So minimal, that I can not even remember how much D.A.N. costs per month. SCUBA related injuries can be very expensive and will require immediate medical help, or death will result. That is the fantastic thing about a free market: If there is a need, someone will create a company to provide that service. And in a free market, the lowest price will always win.

09-03-2009, 03:43 AM	#147
HarryT eBook Enthusiast Posts: 85,544 Karma: 93383099 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: UK Device: Kindle Oasis 2, iPad Pro 10.5", iPhone 6	Shunt, I think that what the previous poster is asking is "had you lived in a country where healthcare is state-provided, why do you believe that, in similar circumstances to the ones you describe, you would have been treated more poorly than you were under your current system?" With respect, the fact that you've received good care under your system does not mean that alternate systems would have treated you less well, does it? I personally, and all my family, have always received superb care from our NHS.

09-03-2009, 03:57 AM	#148
Shunt1 Enthusiast Posts: 31 Karma: 112 Join Date: Nov 2008 Device: Kindle, PRS-700	had you lived in a country where healthcare is state-provided, why do you believe that, in similar circumstances to the ones you describe, you would have been treated more poorly than you were under your current system?" Who is paying for this? Seriously, with the type of injuries that my wife and I have both suffered since 2000, we are talking about well over $1,000,000 for only two people. Would government health care actually provide that medical quality, at such a minimal personal cost? Remember, in America, we do have government health care! I served in the Army for 20 years, and could go to any V.A Hospital for "free" medical care at any time, since I am a veteran. Personally, even I am not that STUPID! Today, I can walk, because I did not go to a V.A. Hospital for "free" medical care. Care to debate that topic? Ask any person who has earned their time with the military, and how good that government V.A. Hospical care can be. Liberals can do anything that they want, as long as they keep me out of it! Why is that concept so hard to understand?

09-03-2009, 04:30 AM	#150
Salgueiros Eudaimonia Posts: 898 Karma: 9164418 Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Vancouver, Canada Device: Sony PRS T2, Sony PRS T3, Sony DPT-RP1	Thanks, Harry T Shunt, My uncle was injured beadly in war in africa and he not only needed care to treat his many injuries but also required continuous care throughout his life. I am pretty sure the cost was very high and yet nobody raised any question about it, and i am pretty sure the standard of treatment was exactly the same as the treatment the rest of the patients had in the hospitals he was. Precisely because since all contribute to it, all can benefit from it, no matter his or her condition. What is the fear? Government health might be bad in US in some cases because it reflects the level of investment the country puts in it.