Seriously thoughtful American Health Care

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by formerroadie

I would like to pause and thank you all for a meaningful discussion. I discuss this topic on political forums and it turns into a screaming match. I was hoping that people who read a lot would bring great questions and thoughts to the discussion. Breath of fresh air my friends!

I think, to be honest, the reaction you're going to get from anyone living in Western Europe is "why on Earth are you even talking about this - healthcare is a fundamental human right". For most of us, the idea that a government would not provide healthcare for its citizens is just bizarre . It really is a pretty deep-seated cultural difference between Europe and the US.

[formerroadie]

Originally Posted by HarryT

I think, to be honest, the reaction you're going to get from anyone living in Western Europe is "why on Earth are you even talking about this - healthcare is a fundamental human right". For most of us, the idea that a government would not provide healthcare for its citizens is just bizarre . It really is a pretty deep-seated cultural difference between Europe and the US.

Yeah. I'm an American and I agree with my European colleagues.

[ahammer]

for most in the us it not a queston of

Originally Posted by HarryT

"why on Earth are you even talking about this - healthcare is a fundamental human right".

but how and given how bad our govment does medacare. I would perfer a system that does not have to relay on the govment to get its hands into it.

but we should(and do now) make sure that everyone is covered.

(note that the way we are doing it right now is forcing a lot of hostptals out of biz out here in az.. becuse of all the bordercrosser going into the system and the hostptals not geting paid anything for them.)

[Sparrow]

Originally Posted by HarryT

I think, to be honest, the reaction you're going to get from anyone living in Western Europe is "why on Earth are you even talking about this - healthcare is a fundamental human right".

I don't think the government here regards healthcare as 'a fundamental human right' - the system we have denies people treatment if it is deemed not to be cost effective.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by HarryT

I think, to be honest, the reaction you're going to get from anyone living in Western Europe is "why on Earth are you even talking about this - healthcare is a fundamental human right". For most of us, the idea that a government would not provide healthcare for its citizens is just bizarre . It really is a pretty deep-seated cultural difference between Europe and the US.

It may come from America's claim that we have no "class system;" that anyone, from any background, can rise to any skill level, any job.

This fosters an attitude that anyone living in poverty is stupid or lazy or both, and undeserving of "free" services of various sorts. Currently, free education is provided to everyone... but I assure you that it's not the same education. Oakland, where I live, pays a bit more than $4000 per student per year for public education. Marin county, a few miles away, is one of the wealthiest in the nation; they pay over $9000 per student per year. And over 90% of Marin students graduate high school; less than 2/3 of Oakland students do.

Other public services have similar differences. There's an awareness that not providing police, fire, and road services to poor communities is bad for everyone... but the services provided aren't even close to the ones available in wealthy communities.

[formerroadie]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

It may come from America's claim that we have no "class system;" that anyone, from any background, can rise to any skill level, any job.

This fosters an attitude that anyone living in poverty is stupid or lazy or both, and undeserving of "free" services of various sorts. Currently, free education is provided to everyone... but I assure you that it's not the same education. Oakland, where I live, pays a bit more than $4000 per student per year for public education. Marin county, a few miles away, is one of the wealthiest in the nation; they pay over $9000 per student per year. And over 90% of Marin students graduate high school; less than 2/3 of Oakland students do.

Other public services have similar differences. There's an awareness that not providing police, fire, and road services to poor communities is bad for everyone... but the services provided aren't even close to the ones available in wealthy communities.

Yes, this is a major factor in the debate for sure.

[krisk]

I think one of the biggest problems is that we have been looking at the Canadian System for years as they are both closest to us, and back when Hillary was trying to shove it down our throats that was used as a comparison quite often. by all outside appearances, especially for those of us WITH good health care coverage, the candian system is broken and it scares us.

certainly it needs to be fixed, and it needs to be fair. as it sits right now, I personally would not be in favor or any system I have seen thus far outside of the French system. that seems to be a system that is working and working well.

(and yes, I quit reading after page one)

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by krisk

I think one of the biggest problems is that we have been looking at the Canadian System for years as they are both closest to us, and back when Hillary was trying to shove it down our throats that was used as a comparison quite often. by all outside appearances, especially for those of us WITH good health care coverage, the candian system is broken and it scares us.

Serious question, krisk: a while ago, on a coach tour of Canada, I visited Niagara. The place was full (and I mean full) of American senior citizens who, our guide informed us, were visiting to buy their medicines there, since medicine is so much cheaper in Canada than in the USA. Were we misinformed?

[ahammer]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Serious question, krisk: a while ago, on a coach tour of Canada, I visited Niagara. The place was full (and I mean full) of American senior citizens who, our guide informed us, were visiting to buy their medicines there, since medicine is so much cheaper in Canada than in the USA. Were we misinformed?

nope both canada and mexio gets alot of them..

this is do to long aount of time that the fda takes to aprove anything here.
this leads to lots less none name brands over here.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Serious question, krisk: a while ago, on a coach tour of Canada, I visited Niagara. The place was full (and I mean full) of American senior citizens who, our guide informed us, were visiting to buy their medicines there, since medicine is so much cheaper in Canada than in the USA. Were we misinformed?

For the wealthy, or the well-insured, the US system is better. For everyone else, other systems are better.

For drug prices, other nations are better; however, US citizens who have otherwise good coverage (i.e. doesn't remove their insurance when they're found to have diabetes or a heart condition), the higher drug prices are offset by the other advantages.

[Kosst Amojan]

Originally Posted by HarryT

I think, to be honest, the reaction you're going to get from anyone living in Western Europe is "why on Earth are you even talking about this - healthcare is a fundamental human right". For most of us, the idea that a government would not provide healthcare for its citizens is just bizarre . It really is a pretty deep-seated cultural difference between Europe and the US.

First time posting in this forum but you got me curious over this. How is healthcare a human right? Healthcare cost money and if the government is paying for it, that means they're taking it from forcefully from the people. So how can something be a right if it requires theft?

BTW: I'm an intensely philosophically oriented person, I know my own beliefs and why I believe them but I really never understood why the collectivist believes in the things they do, only that they do.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by Kosst Amojan

First time posting in this forum but you got me curious over this. How is healthcare a human right? Healthcare cost money and if the government is paying for it, that means they're taking it from forcefully from the people. So how can something be a right if it requires theft?

Not "a right" in the way that "civil unbiased treatment" is a right, but a right like education and roads are a right... once the state has enough money to support them, everyone is better off if everyone has access to them. Restricting them to the wealthy and elite serves only to maintain unnecessary divisions between "haves" and "have-nots," causing strife and jealousy and anguish.

Oh, and dead children. The core of this debate is "whose children are allowed to live to adulthood?"* That's why it gets so emotional. There's a subcategory of "who has to die at the age of 60?" but that's a considerably more rational part of the discussion.

Note that I said "everybody" is better off. I do not believe that national healthcare costs extra money. It would cost money to *implement* it, because it would involve a drastic change from our current system. However, once in place, it costs the nation as a whole considerably less than it does now--because healthier people are more productive, and healthcare providers who aren't trying to work for the highest profit possible won't order unnecessary tests for those insurance packages that can afford it, while ignoring tests for those who need them but can't afford them.


*Children: The US has an increasing populace that believes children are an expensive hobby, and those who can't afford to bear the full costs of that hobby--financial and emotional--shouldn't have them. There is an incredible callousness towards the children living in poverty or with a single parent, as if they had no inherent right to live, and therefore of course shouldn't be provided comfortable homes, good education, or healthcare.

[griffonwing]

I have 2 heart conditions.

1) Pulmonary Stenosis - The artery which supplies blood to my lungs is narrower than it should be, so my heart has to pump harder. The upside, I have a strong heart. The downside, it may wear out quicker than normal.

2) Heart Murmer - Basically, it's a leaky valve. Not too terrible, but it's audible with an ear to the chest.

I have been diagnosed with these since birth. I have never required or been prescribed for medication for either. I get winded more quickly than others, and for the first 30 years of my life, I have weighed no more than 125 lbs. (57Kg or 8.7 stone). I'm now up to about 145-150. Considering I am about 5'6", it's not too terribly bad.

I recently applied for health insurance, and was denied due to my 2 heart conditions. The funny thing is, a murmer is not that bad. Many MANY people have them and don't even know it, and are not even affected by it. Now, I could go wit a different plan, but I would have to pay a substantially larger amount of money per month for the coverage.

Is this fair? I don't think so. I basically need to get some insurance soon so that I can get some tests done. What with both of my younger brothers dying of Lymphoma at ages 32 and 36, I feel it might be in my best interest to make sure.

Anyway, as for a National Health Care program. No, Against it. I am against anything that give my government even more power than it already has. The US Govt is already too big for it's britches, and has it's hands in everyone's cookie jar. And I don't mean just it's citizens, but the world's as well.

We need to get back to where the government governs the states, and the states have their own laws. Abortion, Drugs, Hate Crimes (don't get me started with that one), Vaccinations, Taxes...it should be STATE RUN, not federally mandated. The Fed Gov should simply be a watchman for the state governments. That was how it used to be. That is what our Constitution dictates, and it was the sole basis for our country to begin with.

[Kostas]

Originally Posted by Kosst Amojan

How is healthcare a human right? Healthcare cost money and if the government is paying for it, that means they're taking it from forcefully from the people. So how can something be a right if it requires theft?

Same applies to education. Is education a human right?
Isn't "free" education provided to everyone in the states?
Though not free, cos' it costs to build schools and pay teachers.
Are taxes taken forcefully by governments = theft? Strange POV.
What taxes serve for if not for this kind of public goods? For bank bailouts??
According to many international reviews and classifications (UN, WEF,...), Sweden is one of the world's most competitive and with best living standard countries, though taxes are perhaps the highest in the world.
There are real scale economies when public money is well managed and spend.

[Verencat]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Serious question, krisk: a while ago, on a coach tour of Canada, I visited Niagara. The place was full (and I mean full) of American senior citizens who, our guide informed us, were visiting to buy their medicines there, since medicine is so much cheaper in Canada than in the USA. Were we misinformed?

All types of medication is far cheaper here, but the medical system in place right now is not large enough to suffice the demand. You go to an emergency and wait twelve hours to be told you need an appointment with a specialist, but that specialist will only see you in two months, and by then, you are either dead or don't care anymore. Even worse, in Québec there was a rule (that was dismissed years ago but is still unofficially applied) saying that patients will mental issues could only be seen in their living area, but since often people having those issues are poor and live in poor neighborhood, the hospitals get overcrowded. In my specific area, the delay is three months to see a psychiatrist. A person with suicidal tendencies needs far less then that to commit an irreparable act.

Anyhow, all this to say that I think a free medical system is a right, but such a system needs to be really well organize to be functional and appealing.