Seriously thoughtful 100W incandescent lightbulbs banned in the EU from 1st Sep

[zelda_pinwheel]

Originally Posted by Moejoe

It's when they're first turned on, depending on which ones I've bought, they can flicker for ages before they actually 'hold the light'.

ha, okay, i see what you mean. that happens to me sometimes but i think it's mostly when they are starting to get old. also sometime they start to buzz when they are first turned on, then it stops. when they start doing that, i buy a new one, to be ready.

[DMcCunney]

The florescents are being pushed over here, too, though not at the point of flatly banning the incandescents. My local electric utility is one of the groups behind them. They're pushing conservation and energy efficiency because they really don't want to build new generating capacity. Doing so is a political nightmare, as everyone knows it's necessary, but no one wants a plant in their area, nor does anyone want to pay the enormous costs. (And for various good reasons, a new plant probably ought to be nuclear, which would add even more fun to the fractious process of getting it built.)
______
Dennis

[wodin]

Originally Posted by HarryT

I think this is sometimes a little exaggerated. There is a very small amount of mercury in a fluorescent light.

I don't have a dog in this fight as I've been using CFLs almost exclusively for years and I don't live in the EU, BUT!

Which is worse, the "very small amount of mercury" or the "very small" carbon footprint of incandescent bulbs?

I don't have a reference for any studies done on the subject, if indeed there are any. Such anti green agenda studies are hugely non PC, and go largely unfunded thus undone.

I use CFLs because they are an economic no brainer, but I do not delude myself that I might be doing the environment a favor.

[Kostas]

Second thougth - there is a real drawback with energy saving bulbs vs. incandescent ones: they cannot be dimmed to get lighting effects!.
Gotta abandon several dimmers I have or find a workaround.
I think that halogen lamps can be dimmed but there's no obvious way to mount them...

[wodin]

Originally Posted by Kostas

Second thougth - there is a real drawback with energy saving bulbs vs. incandescent ones: they cannot be dimmed to get lighting effects!.
Gotta abandon several dimmers I have or find a workaround.
I think that halogen lamps can be dimmed but there's no obvious way to mount them...

Actually they can, the one incandescent holdout I've had for all these years was on on a dimmer switch. In the last year or so "dimmable" CFLs have been available. The price is about twice a normal CFL of the same wattage but they work.

[fugazied]

It's a good idea, the problem currently facing us is that a lot of people are going to compact fluorescent bulbs, which have mercury (a highly dangerous pollutant). Now where are the billions of compact fluorescents going to go when they die? It's an environmental hazard and quite ridiculous. If that mercury gets into groundwater people will get very sick.

LEDs are a better alternative from what I understand. They chew bugger all energy and modern LEDs are nice and white.

[Kostas]

Originally Posted by wodin

In the last year or so "dimmable" CFLs have been available. The price is about twice a normal CFL of the same wattage but they work.

Thanks a lot! Will look out for "dimmable" ones.

[ShortNCuddlyAm]

I think it's a bad idea - LEDs would be a much better replacement. A lot less energy, and sod all heat from them. And a nice, bright white light.

Until bayonet-fit LED bulbs become easily available, and until LED replacements for flouro tubes don't cost an arm and a leg and don't require you to rewire the fitting, we'll be sticking with CFL bulbs.

There was talk of migraine sufferers still being able to get incandescent bulbs, as apparently CFLs can trigger or make worse migraines. Thankfully they are not one of my triggers (normal flouro bulbs on their last legs do make me ill though).

Actually, what I'd really like is something that puts out the light of a halogen, and the heat of an LED - I love the light from halogen bulbs, but I'm really not so keen on the heat!

[Stitchawl]

Originally Posted by ShortNCuddlyAm

I think it's a bad idea - LEDs would be a much better replacement. A lot less energy, and sod all heat from them. And a nice, bright white light.

I had this same idea about the heat factor, but was quickly corrected by my friend from Panasonic. He tells me that more than 50% of the space inside the new large LED lights will be used for the aluminum 'heat-sink' they require. I was surprised as my LED flashlights seem to put out no heat at all. I have a flashlight here on my desk with 16 LED's in the reflector and it's completely cool even when on for several minutes. My friend says that the LED units required for large area lights put out more heat than current florescents, and require large heat-sinks to keep them from burning out!

Stitchawl

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by HarryT

The light from fluorescent bulbs is "yellower" than that from incandescents, but I think it's primarily a matter of what you're used to. I've personally used low-energy fluorescent lightbulbs for many years, and now I find that I prefer their light.

They do take a while to "warm up", compared to the "instant" light of incandscents; that's very true.

You can get instant on bulbs. We have one in the family room that's from Ikea.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Kostas

Thanks a lot! Will look out for "dimmable" ones.

if the dimmer switch is not good enough, you'll get hum and flicker and the bulb will die too soon. We had one like that that we replaced with a normal on/off switch.

[Who are you?]

There are several types of dimmers, the oldest ones use a resistor that gets hot instead of the light getting the current, but that type doesn't save any energy, so they aren't used anymore. There are also dimmers that cut out part of the waveform of the current, these do save a lot of power, are easy to manufacture, but don't work well for CFLs (flicker and shortened life), a dimmer that works with CFLs requires more advanced electronics, and thus is a lot more expensive, and they will be specifically marketed for being CFL compatible. These are still cheaper in the long run than buying CFLs that can be dimmed with distorted waveforms.

[ShortNCuddlyAm]

Originally Posted by Stitchawl

I had this same idea about the heat factor, but was quickly corrected by my friend from Panasonic. He tells me that more than 50% of the space inside the new large LED lights will be used for the aluminum 'heat-sink' they require. I was surprised as my LED flashlights seem to put out no heat at all. I have a flashlight here on my desk with 16 LED's in the reflector and it's completely cool even when on for several minutes. My friend says that the LED units required for large area lights put out more heat than current florescents, and require large heat-sinks to keep them from burning out!

Stitchawl

That's interesting! I also have LED torches (the yeti has more - although I don't think he has a 16 bulb one - yet ), and a couple of LED spots in the kitchen - and like you I've never noticed any real heat from them!

[Ham88]

I've been using CFLs for years now and haven't had any issues, they have 'instant on' ones that turn on quickly enough so I don't notice a difference between that and incandescent. I'm thinking that the next bulbs I buy will be LED because they use so little energy and aren't really all that expensive (plus they have them at the local walmart), but that won't happen for months, these CFLs last forever!

[Xenophon]

On the subject of CFLs, Mercury, color of light, etc., here are a few tid-bits you may find interesting.

• Mercury: A CFL that complies with basic US standards contains about the same amount of mercury as one fish fillet (assuming ocean caught fish). A newer-design "very low mercury" CFL contains substantially less mercury than a single fish fillet. Standards in other countries may vary.
• Light Color: CFLs are available in a variety of different "color temperatures." Think back to your High-school or college physics classes... The color of a beam of light can be described in terms of the temperature (really energy) of its photons (usually given in Kelvin). A standard incandescent bulb has a color temperature of 2700K. Daylight has a color temperature of roughly 6500K. The fluorescent bulbs found in offices are often either "warm white" (3400K) or "cool white" (4300K). Finally, there are also "full spectrum" bulbs, which put out light across much of the visible spectrum -- they have peaks at 6500K and at 2-4 other temperatures. When well made, a "full spectrum" bulb really looks like sunlight. The point of all this is that you can purchase CFL bulbs in just about any color temperature you like. Just not at your usual grocery store or big box store. In the US, visit www.1000bulbs.com. In other countries, I have no idea.
• Dimming: Dimmable CFLs have been available for a long time, but were difficult to find. Now they are both easier to find and far less expensive than previously. Prices have fallen to around 2x the cost of a non-dimmable CFL. Still way cheaper than incandescent.
• Quick start: Any reasonable CFL should be "instant-on." What this really means is that it should reach 50% light output in the first 1/2 second after you turn it on; 100% light output may take up to several minutes. Cheap, non-brand-name CFLs often fail this particular test.
• Size: Available CFLs can be smaller than incandescent bulbs with comparable light output. You may have to look around a bit, however.

When I last looked at LED vs. CFL lighting (about this time last year), the available units produced similar lumens/Watt. Thus, if you want 1600 lumens you need a 23-Watt unit. And that's going to produce about 22.9 Watts worth of heat -- no difference whether it's LED or CFL. Thus the heat-sinks someone mentioned up-thread. Of course, LEDs really are "instant-on" at full light output -- a nice advantage.

The big deal, however, is that LEDs are quite early in their technology curve -- there's a long way to go before we reach theoretical peak efficiency. By comparison, CFLs are a mature technology where the engineers have already squeezed out most of the available efficiency gains. So somewhere down the road (hopefully not too far) we should start to see LEDs that are much more efficient than the CFLs we'll be replacing. And that'll be great!

Xenophon