Brooklyn Library restricts access to Tin Tin book

[CleverClothe]

Originally Posted by thirdnostril

So...is this about America, or the whole world?

Nothing you said is true.

Perhaps you don't have a TV, or read the newspaper. Allow me to assist you. Use your favorite search engine to look up "Town Hall" in recent news.

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by thirdnostril

Wow, how cowardly! You say a bunch of utterly vile nonsense, and then put in the disclaimer "People won't like this because they're weak, and so they'll disagree with me." Sorry, you don't get to announce my motivation for telling you you are full of it. I'm telling you you're wrong because that's the truth.

No one has majority control in America? Hello? Ever heard of a straight white Protestant male?

Hmm...

Is that straight white Protestant male - liberal?
straight white Protestant male - Socialist?
straight white Protestant male - conservative?
straight white Protestant male - greedy capitalist?
straight white Protestant male - union activist?
straight white Protestant male - evangelical?
straight white Protestant male - atheist?
straight white Protestant male - cat lover?
straight white Protestant male - cat hater?
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They all have different agendas...which makes them all minorities, as far as wielding political power...

[animedude01]

Originally Posted by Kostas

Nice post!
It resumes a well-known controversy in France, Belgium and elsewhere.
It's true that non-white people is usually depicted as mentally simple in several Tintin books as opposed to the insinuated superiority of white race. Personally, as an adult (?) I think that it is clearly racially offensive. I am pretty sure that such content could not be published today.
I read too a lot of Tintin as a kid (in French), but I was not able to make such a judgement being so young. Actually (and not proudly), I remember that I was dumb enough to smile with the way that black people was supposed to speak in french.
I hate censorship, but the fact that racism is rather insinuated in Tintin and these comics are supposed to be read by kids makes the case completely different as compared to "mein Kampf".

It's true that much of what's in Tintin is considered racism now, but all things have to be taken in perspective. These were written over 50 years ago, when this was more common. Should Huckleberry Finn or Tom Sawyer not be read because of their portrayal of african-americans? How about Gone With the Wind?

Yes, there has been, and always will be racism, despotism, classism, etc. Look at the middle east right now. Hell, look at the slums compared to the suburbs of any major city in the world! Does that mean we should get rid of everything that could potentially offend someone?

Kids learn from their parents, families, and peers. They don't become bigots because they read a book You read Tintin, I read Tintin, a lot of people have read Tintin and they didn't turn into bigots or racists _because_ they read something like that.

If people just learned to let go and not take offense at so many things, the world would be a lot better place. That doesn't mean they shouldn't _care_ about something that's offensive, but let's all have some perspective. These are comics drawn over fifty years ago and meant to be funny.

[ahi]

Originally Posted by animedude01

It's true that much of what's in Tintin is considered racism now, but all things have to be taken in perspective. These were written over 50 years ago, when this was more common. Should Huckleberry Finn or Tom Sawyer not be read because of their portrayal of african-americans? How about Gone With the Wind?

Yes, there has been, and always will be racism, despotism, classism, etc. Look at the middle east right now. Hell, look at the slums compared to the suburbs of any major city in the world! Does that mean we should get rid of everything that could potentially offend someone?

Kids learn from their parents, families, and peers. They don't become bigots because they read a book You read Tintin, I read Tintin, a lot of people have read Tintin and they didn't turn into bigots or racists _because_ they read something like that.

If people just learned to let go and not take offense at so many things, the world would be a lot better place. That doesn't mean they shouldn't _care_ about something that's offensive, but let's all have some perspective. These are comics drawn over fifty years ago and meant to be funny.

If your son/daughter was mixed or black, would you be comfortable giving him/her Tin Tin to read? Or Asterix? Or Verne's Mysterious Island? Or Tom Sawyer for that matter?

At what age?

And, assuming there is an age, at what age would you stop compulsively trying to remember with regards to every classic you considered passing his/her way whether or not it contains any subtly or not at all subtly offensive or racist stuff?

Taking a few minutes to think about this might leave you with greater insight into the issue... or, at least, greater complexity for your own take on it.

If your wife was the member of an ethnic minority, would you ever buy her one of those lovely "couple statues" available from Hallmark and places as such that depict two highly stylized, yet unmistakeably caucasian, lovers?

Food for thought.

- Ahi

[Sonist]

Originally Posted by ahi

...
Food for thought.
....

All good points.

Yet, as they say, the road to Hell is paved with good intentions. Censoring books is dangerous, even when well-meaning.

Times and mores evolve, but to ensure that they do apace, we should not hide from view those of the past, even if they offend the present.

Because, what is accepted in the present, once offended, in the past. And it may yet offend, in the future.

Or, if I may be poetic:

Condemn,
But do not ban.

[ahi]

Originally Posted by Sonist

Yet, as they say, the road to Hell is paved with good intentions. Censoring books is dangerous, even when well-meaning.

And I do not for a moment wish to suggest otherwise.

It is an incredible thing though how so much of the world that to a Caucasian feels utterly benign is bitter toward and/or excluding of individuals of other ethnic background.

One of the more ethnically diverse baby books my daughter has, features angels from all the major ethnicities--but the main character is a little Caucasian toddler, with Caucasian parents. My daughter is evidently not within the book's target demographic.

A small thing, in the greater scheme of things. But, for some, life is full of countless such small tragedies; that members of the majority generally do not even notice.

- Ahi

[Phogg]

Originally Posted by ahi

If your son/daughter was mixed or black, would you be comfortable giving him/her Tin Tin to read? Or Asterix? Or Verne's Mysterious Island? Or Tom Sawyer for that matter?
- Ahi

As it happens, I have no problem with it.

I teach my children that human beings are not dogs.
There is zero value in some claimed genetic pedigree.

I point out that ony 3 out of every 10 North Americans is a genetically pure anything at all.
And that it doesnt matter.

Humans have always presented derogative views of groups they disliked, even when they had to contrive the alledged connections to start with.

People are just as likely to do this over skin color, economic status, language, education, religion, or sexuality as they are over melanine content.

Why would I tech my children anything else?

It isn't a kind world, and I wish for them to be best able to cope with the world that is really there. Not helplessy waiting for someone else to make it all better.

[ahi]

Originally Posted by Phogg

As it happens, I have no problem with it.

I teach my children that human beings are not dogs.
There is zero value in some claimed genetic pedigree.

I point out that ony 3 out of every 10 North Americans is a genetically pure anything at all.
And that it doesnt matter.

Humans have always presented derogative views of groups they disliked, even when they had to contrive the alledged connections to start with.

People are just as likely to do this over skin color, economic status, language, education, religion, or sexuality as they are over melanine content.

Why would I tech my children anything else?

It isn't a kind world, and I wish for them to be best able to cope with the world that is really there. Not helplessy waiting for someone else to make it all better.

I'm not sure what you are answering to...

... do you/would you give your young black children Robinson Crusoe to read, despite it only featuring black people as savage/evil cannibals (save for the one savage/evil cannibal that turns good as a result of being called/turned into servitude by the white protagonist)?

And if so, do you do so without commentary on it all, until/unless they come to you?

My point wasn't that books should be censored wholesale, or that somebody else should solve the problem of so many classics being offensive. My point was that for non-Caucasians living in Caucasian countries, the world that the majority generally presumes to be benign is against them in a myriad insignificant ways (that doubtless do ultimately add up to something significant).

Let us certainly dismiss the idea of censoring books in the smallest ways as dubious or downright wrong. But it doesn't hurt to try to think a bit on the very real factors that might have made some individuals think it's a good idea.

- Ahi

[Sweetpea]

Originally Posted by Kostas

Nice post!
It resumes a well-known controversy in France, Belgium and elsewhere.
It's true that non-white people is usually depicted as mentally simple in several Tintin books as opposed to the insinuated superiority of white race. Personally, as an adult (?) I think that it is clearly racially offensive. I am pretty sure that such content could not be published today.
I read too a lot of Tintin as a kid (in French), but I was not able to make such a judgement being so young. Actually (and not proudly), I remember that I was dumb enough to smile with the way that black people was supposed to speak in french.
I hate censorship, but the fact that racism is rather insinuated in Tintin and these comics are supposed to be read by kids makes the case completely different as compared to "mein Kampf".

When I read those comics, I didn't even know racism existed. One of my best friends at elementary school was a Moroccan. Who cared where his parents came from (they came here in the '70's when there was a boom and there was a huge shortage of cheap labor)? Not me.

When I read those Tin Tin comics, I never even put the link from Herge's. Africans to real Africans. It was a comic and in comics nothing is real.

Children don't judge, parents do, and children will copy their parents. Just because parents decide that a book isn't for children, will children think there's something more happening inside that book. Parents should let their children read it and then point to the fact that that is how people thought about those population groups so many years ago and that the reality is completely different. Point them real life people from that ethnic group to show the difference.

[ahi]

Originally Posted by Sweetpea

Children don't judge, parents do, and children will copy their parents.

I get what you are saying, but don't you think reinforcement of the same stereotypes enough times from enough different sources would eventually impact children's worldviews, even if only subtly/subconsciously?

- Ahi

[HarryT]

I think personally that for you, as a parent, to determine what is and is not appropriate for a young child to read is of course absolutely right. However, to remove books from libraries merely because they stem from an age when cultural attitudes were different to those that are prevalent today is not right. These books are a part of our cultural heritage, and should be accessible to everybody.

[Sweetpea]

Originally Posted by ahi

I get what you are saying, but don't you think reinforcement of the same stereotypes enough times from enough different sources would eventually impact children's worldviews, even if only subtly/subconsciously?

- Ahi

No, I don't think so. Partly because there are more than enough other (real life) examples around, but also because there is more to learning than books and comics. If a kid would never be allowed to be around kids from other ethnic groups, probably yes. But then we're talking about a parents influence again (you are not allowed to play with that kid because he's black/red/yellow/white/blue/purple/green/tall/small/medium sized/etc)

[Sonist]

Originally Posted by ahi

And I do not for a moment wish to suggest otherwise.

It is an incredible thing though how so much of the world that to a Caucasian feels utterly benign is bitter toward and/or excluding of individuals of other ethnic background....

Often true, particularly where Caucasians are a majority. But it is often true where other races are the majority, and at times there is less of an attempt to accommodate other.

But this is not limited to race. It applies to nationality, and to religion, and to sexuality, and to social class, and to education....

Times change, as noted before. Increased mobility gives raise to increased political egalitarianism, which gives raise to increased meritocracy.
Once out of the village, we are all mutts. Which is actually a good thing, from an evolutionary standpoint :-) But much more importantly, it's good to remember, that we are individuals.

I believe, that generally, we are in agreement.

[FlorenceArt]

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

but really what we think is that free speech only apply to me.

Heh, it's funny because the other day I was thinking pretty much the same thing, but not about the Americans in particular. I think that freedom of speach is something we all support, just as long as the speaker shares our view.

It's much more difficult to support true freedom of speach, but it is essential to democracy. And because it goes against our instincts, it must be defended constantly.

Especially now, as all kinds of individual freedoms seem be increasingly threatened, usually by people with the best of intentions.

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by FlorenceArt

Heh, it's funny because the other day I was thinking pretty much the same thing, but not about the Americans in particular. I think that freedom of speach is something we all support, just as long as the speaker shares our view.

It's much more difficult to support true freedom of speach, but it is essential to democracy. And because it goes against our instincts, it must be defended constantly.

Especially now, as all kinds of individual freedoms seem be increasingly threatened, usually by people with the best of intentions.

Agreed.

One of the toughest (and most painful) lessons I learned about being an adult is to let people go to h*ll their own way. If they ask for help, help. Otherwise it's _their_ life, and you have to let them live it.