A silly question: what is the advantage of ePub for a reader?

[Barcey]

Originally Posted by Hellmark

There are many DRM free epubs out there. Epub, without DRM, is not a propietary format. I have dozens of books in epub format, and only one with DRM.

Yes but in the example of dedicated e-ink readers the manufacturers have had to use Adobe's reading software to give people the capability of purchasing ebooks with DRM. You're stuck with the limited features in Adobe's implementation so the format isn't relevant.

People are using ePub and Adobe Digital Editions as interchangeable and they're not. The limitations of Adobe's reader are not limitations of ePub. I can take a DRM free ePub and convert it to Mobipocket and get the reading features that are important to me so why do I have to use reading software that supports it native.

I've used Stanza on my iPod Touch and I find it annoying when it pauses to calculate the next chapter or when I accidentally tilt it and it recalculates for landscape. For the end user it's the features of the reading software that are important and not the format. You're never going to please everyone.

DRM should never have been part of ePub. It's goes against every intention of having a standard. Adobe and Overdrive have used their participation in the IDPF to corrupt it to allow DRM and it's killed it as a real standard that is relevant to the end user.

[dmikov]

Originally Posted by Sonist

Oh. right..., silly me, just didn't realize that all computer monitors are all the same size..., 'cause somehow some look different to me. I guess that's why PDF is the most popular format for distributing all kinds of publications, to be viewed on screen.

The fact that current implementation in many ereaders sucks (DR1000 excepted,) doesn't mean the format is bad. As bigger screen come in, and as processing power increases, and color comes in, PDFs will look just fine on even cheap ereaders.

But even before color, there is a crop of large screens coming up, and presumably most will sport decent PDF support. And that will be the beginning of the end for the alternate formats, IMO.

I personally can't wait to be able to read a nicely typeset book on a large e-ink screen.

You personally of course, but there is plenty people who look at ebook for portabiltiy and ability to change font size.

Many people don't want to take with them anything bigger then iPhone. I would be carrying 5" device. It makes no sense to use pdf on this device and deal with horrible formatting just because I wanted to switch to largest font.

Zoom on pdf does nothing for me, I don't want to see parts of the page I want to see a full page with bigger fonts. But that's just me.

[gustav011]

I just want to read, so I convert all my books to plain txt-files.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by gustav011

I just want to read, so I convert all my books to plain txt-files.

Yuck - you lose all the formatting, illustrations, etc, by doing that! In many books those are important to the story. Imagine trying to read Conan Doyle's "The Dancing Men" without the illustrations!

[=X=]

Originally Posted by Barcey

... People are using ePub and Adobe Digital Editions as interchangeable and they're not. The limitations of Adobe's reader are not limitations of ePub....

Sure it is, the minute ePUB chose not to define a way to extract and display an ePUB file it was a flaw in the format. There is a reason why all the other existing formats impose a requirement on how to extract and display eBooks.

Originally Posted by Barcey

I can take a DRM free ePub and convert it to Mobipocket and get the reading features that are important to me so why do I have to use reading software that supports it native.

Sure but then why bother with ePUB most of the popular formats can easily be shifted except for PDF and LRF.

Originally Posted by Barcey

DRM should never have been part of ePub. It's goes against every intention of having a standard. Adobe and Overdrive have used their participation in the IDPF to corrupt it to allow DRM and it's killed it as a real standard that is relevant to the end user.

It wasn't and that is why DRM ePUB is such a mess. If DRM was built into ePUB then it would have lived up to it's claim to fame which is one format for all eBook readers. Instead it left DRM up to the distributor and now we continue the tower of Bable, but with far more confusion.

If DRM was included it would have been the DVD market for eBooks any DVD player that supported the DVD standard could play any movie. That was great for the consumer! Because DVDs where a commodity so the prices where driven down, both for the players and the DVDs. However not allowing DRM is like the Blue-Ray/HD-DVD wars where people had to chose which format they think will win, until there is only one. (So far there is no competition to Adobe) Since there is one market leader that controls the standard (DRM ePUB) all vendors must pay Adobe to even make it in the market this is going to keep the prices of eInks up there.

=X=

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by ahi

PDF is the only eBook format. All the rest are just documents.



- Ahi

PDF is not an eBook format. It's a document format for printing.

[Penforhire]

PDF may indeed be the most universal (I confirm that anecdotally at work) but it is a HORRIBLE format for varied e-readers. We need one of the formats that are NOT pre-rendered. I don't have a dog in the Epub fight but I'll take that or LIT or RTF way ahead of PDF.

[Kralik]

Originally Posted by =X=

ePUB
Poorly spec out file format (for interpreters). Possibility than a perfectly valid ePUB will not work on anther ePUB device.
DRM is not standardized so you can have so DRM X won't work with DRM Y
No Dictionary support
No Annotation
Bookmarks
No Margin control
HTML 4.0 format standard. Same as LIT
Page counter on side, overlaps with text

I think at least some of this has to do with the particular software you are using to display ePUB, not the format itself. On my jetBook:

-There are no page counters on the side, just the standard page counters on the top of the jetBook (as it does for all files). Text is displayed from edge to edge without extra margins.
-There IS dictionary support (look up a word OR translate it to another language).

[jgray]

While the page numbers on the side are definitely an ADE thing, the dictionary and annotation support are not specified in the epub spec, as they are in LIT. Ectaco integrated their own dictionary product into the jetBook.

There is an entire thread on MR about requesting official dictionary support in epub. That way, more readers can support dictionaries and there will be interoperability for purchased dictionaries. LIT and Mobi put dictionaries in their specs, which is why you can still buy various dictionaries in those formats. Now if only the IDPF will do something about epub.

[ahi]

Originally Posted by dmikov

You personally of course, but there is plenty people who look at ebook for portabiltiy and ability to change font size.

That will stop being the case when eBook readers become reasonably universal and have to stop primarily being toys and pulp novel reading devices.

Originally Posted by JSWolf

PDF is not an eBook format. It's a document format for printing.

As usual, when the topic turns to PDFs, you clearly don't know what you're talking about, John.

Originally Posted by Penforhire

PDF may indeed be the most universal (I confirm that anecdotally at work) but it is a HORRIBLE format for varied e-readers. We need one of the formats that are NOT pre-rendered. I don't have a dog in the Epub fight but I'll take that or LIT or RTF way ahead of PDF.

The only (arguably) cogent argument for reflow formats is the desire to arbitrarily adjust the font size at the press of a button. Doing so necessarily comes at the cost of any hope of decent typography... which is the cornerstone of bookmaking.

PDF is the only eBook format. Everything else can only make documents of whatever quality or bad to terrible electronic Books.

The fact that reflow formats have no hope of ever decently managing anything but the most simply layed out books (for entirely objective and factual reasons that will not change with the foreseeable advance of technology) means that there is no chance of a reflow format ever becoming the only (or even primary) eBook format... once the eBook market stops being the tiny niche curiousity that it currently is, and eBooks will actually be expected to be able to accommodate books of any genre without looking like they were made in Microsoft Word.

-----

Of course... none of this changes the fact that today, 9 times out of 10 a mobipocket or an ePub is more worth downloading because hardly anybody knows how to create proper PDF files for eBook devices. Which is why I stated that ePub (or preferably mobipocket) make good sources for converting into PDFs... which is the only way I can enjoy an eBook reading experience that doesn't make me regret not having bought the $2 paperback instead.

- Ahi

[Sonist]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

PDF is not an eBook format. It's a document format for printing.

Hm, see if you can find the word "printing" in the main wikipedia definition:

"Portable Document Format (PDF) is a file format created by Adobe Systems in 1993 for document exchange. PDF is used for representing two-dimensional documents in a manner independent of the application software, hardware, and operating system.
Each PDF file encapsulates a complete description of a fixed-layout 2D document (and, with Acrobat 3D, embedded 3D documents) that includes the text, fonts, images, and 2D vector graphics which compose the documents.
Formerly a proprietary format, PDF was officially released as an open standard on July 1, 2008, and published by the International Organization for Standardization as ISO/IEC 32000-1:2008."

Your argument is kind of like claiming, that a paper book sucks, because you' miss the ability to reflow and print the manuscript on 3x3" paper on your office printer.

And, yes, you CAN print plain text files too, but it doesn't make it a "format for printing.".

[Kralik]

Originally Posted by jgray

While the page numbers on the side are definitely an ADE thing, the dictionary and annotation support are not specified in the epub spec, as they are in LIT. Ectaco integrated their own dictionary product into the jetBook.

There is an entire thread on MR about requesting official dictionary support in epub. That way, more readers can support dictionaries and there will be interoperability for purchased dictionaries. LIT and Mobi put dictionaries in their specs, which is why you can still buy various dictionaries in those formats. Now if only the IDPF will do something about epub.

Thanks for the clarification.

[Abecedary]

Originally Posted by Sonist

Hm, see if you can find the word "printing" in the main wikipedia definition:

"Portable Document Format (PDF) is a file format created by Adobe Systems in 1993 for document exchange. PDF is used for representing two-dimensional documents in a manner independent of the application software, hardware, and operating system.
Each PDF file encapsulates a complete description of a fixed-layout 2D document (and, with Acrobat 3D, embedded 3D documents) that includes the text, fonts, images, and 2D vector graphics which compose the documents.
Formerly a proprietary format, PDF was officially released as an open standard on July 1, 2008, and published by the International Organization for Standardization as ISO/IEC 32000-1:2008."

Your argument is kind of like claiming, that a paper book sucks, because you' miss the ability to reflow and print the manuscript on 3x3" paper on your office printer.

And, yes, you CAN print plain text files too, but it doesn't make it a "format for printing.".

Not to mention that the entire graphics display layer of OS X is based on Display PDF (a successor to the Display PostScript that NeXT systems used).

[kovidgoyal]

I think I need to come up with a little jingle for all the PDF apologists

"
PDF is crap
PDF is obsolete
PDF will die
If you need to know why
Just resize your PDF window
Or try, please try,
To convert your PDF to something else
"

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by kovidgoyal

I think I need to come up with a little jingle for all the PDF apologists

"
PDF is crap
PDF is obsolete
PDF will die
If you need to know why
Just resize your PDF window
Or try, please try,
To convert your PDF to something else
"

Is this available on some kind of t-shirt or a mouse mat even