Best format for the future?

[kovidgoyal]

Originally Posted by Amalthia

But the numbers also show up on my PRS-505???

View the EPUB files in the alibre reader if you want to see what it lokos like without page numbers

[Nate the great]

Originally Posted by Amalthia

Okay if that's the case then Adobe really sucks. Why would they implement an annoying feature that you can't turn off???

I highly doubt most ebook readers are reading textbooks and all the ebook devices have their own numbering system?

Hmm yeah it looks like I'll be using LRF for a long time or until something is done about the numbers on the side margins. (seriously I would have understood top of the page, bottom of the page but the side?) That's not even pleasent in a paper book.

Um sorry venting...

I think a fixed page size is a good idea. There are times when it will be needed for reference.

The stupid part is not being able to make the page numbers disappear.

[Amalthia]

Originally Posted by kovidgoyal

View the EPUB files in the alibre reader if you want to see what it lokos like without page numbers

Well the problem is I can't make them dissapear on my sony and I actually need to see how the file looks with the page numbers added so I can adjust the margins to make sure they don't hover over the text of the story. If I were reading on my computer this probably wouldn't be such a big issue for me but I like using my entire screen with the smallest margins possible and the page numbers on the side really mess it up and it looks ugly to me. I like things uniformed and even and if I have a 10pt margin on the left side I need it on the right too. I'm a bit OCD I think.

But the main problem is if I don't get the margins right the numbers cover up the letters.

[Amalthia]

Originally Posted by Nate the great

I think a fixed page size is a good idea. There are times when it will be needed for reference.

The stupid part is not being able to make the page numbers disappear.

and if you can't make the numbers dissapear the location of the numbers is problematic. I don't know why the page numbers have to show up in the middle of the screen. Actually, I don't get why a fixed page size is good? When you reference materials off a internet browser you don't need a page number?

[kovidgoyal]

The reason the page numbers are placed where they are is to show the exact position the page number X starts since it can be in the middle of the screen. If they put the page numbers at the top or bottom, you would not know exactly where a page started. Just one of the many compromises forced on ADE by the need to appease people that are wedded to page numbers.

[wallcraft]

Originally Posted by Amalthia

Do you think there may be a way to edit out the page numbers in an epub file? I assumed all epubs had the numbers built into it.

The page numbers are nothing to do with ePubs, they are entirely ADE specific. It is possible to get rid of them, by using a Adobe-only extension to ePubs ("Synthetic page names"), see Page size.

[tompe]

Originally Posted by kovidgoyal

The reason the page numbers are placed where they are is to show the exact position the page number X starts since it can be in the middle of the screen. If they put the page numbers at the top or bottom, you would not know exactly where a page started.

So does that mean that the possibility to refer exactly to a line or word by saying e.g. "page 32 word 105" is lost on the Opus which do not display the pagenumber at the position. Or does it use another method to mark the position?

[Amalthia]

Originally Posted by kovidgoyal

The reason the page numbers are placed where they are is to show the exact position the page number X starts since it can be in the middle of the screen. If they put the page numbers at the top or bottom, you would not know exactly where a page started. Just one of the many compromises forced on ADE by the need to appease people that are wedded to page numbers.

Well hopefully they at least give users more options because at this point the page numbers is the main reason I don't use epub. For me it's a real dealbreaker and that's kind of sad because epub is gaining ground in other areas but maybe on iphones epub works differently?

To me this was a big setback for epub.

[Amalthia]

Originally Posted by wallcraft

The page numbers are nothing to do with ePubs, they are entirely ADE specific. It is possible to get rid of them, by using a Adobe-only extension to ePubs ("Synthetic page names"), see Page size.

I'll read through the manual. I think I read it before but I didn't understand what they were talking about.

I still think the default should have had the numbers turned off and for those who are using their readers for research should be the ones to have to run around trying to figure out how to get page numbers on their devices. I'm willing to bet there are more fiction readers using e-ink devices than research students.

[kovidgoyal]

Originally Posted by tompe

So does that mean that the possibility to refer exactly to a line or word by saying e.g. "page 32 word 105" is lost on the Opus which do not display the pagenumber at the position. Or does it use another method to mark the position?

Presumably, though I haven't seen an OPUS

[rogue_ronin]

Page numbers make zero sense. It's positively medieval.

The reason page numbers make sense in paper books is because you are referring to a particular object/edition, right? (Then you're forced to hunt down that particular edition in meatspace.)

The only way page numbers make sense in an ebook is if you do something similar: state the publisher, the edition, but then you have to start jumping through hoops: the specific hardware, and the specific margin and font settings, (and probably more that I can't think of) so that you can force the pagination.

Or you use only the paper book as your model, and hardcode page numbers into the book. Which, as Amalthia vigorously points out, is annoying and unnecessary.

Or there has to be a universal "paper page model" that everyone uses, becomes a sort of underlying "indexing format" and bury the page numbers in metadata.

I guess you could combine the above two, and use the paper book as the referent and bury the page numbers in the metadata. But if there is no paper book...

A simpler solution is something along the lines of Publisher/Document/Section(Chapter , Appendix, etc.)/ParagraphNumber. Or even simpler, just Publisher/Document/ParagraphNumber, with all paragraphs numbered sequentially from the very beginning. Tables and Images, etc. simply have the preceding and/or following paragraph indicated. Computers are very good at counting.

And you don't explicitly display the paragraph numbers, just work them into the attributes in the underlying format (preferably XHTML).

The hardware readers have to start allowing you to turn display of that data on and off, or make it possible to jump to numbered paragraphs. But that's not too hard.

m a r

[NASCARaddicted]

thanks for the information.

Recently, I started to beta test a new firmware for the Bebook and when I saw the page numbers on the side of the epub files, I thought it was a bug ... so right now it seems as if is a "feature" What anoys me is: if the page number on the side would always be in the same position, it would be ok. But I noticed, that it changs position. Sometimes, it is up high on the page, then it is on the middle of the page ...

As for html and xhtml ... I am still some kind of novice when it comes to that, so I have to ask: How does it work, if the ebook has pictures ? I mean, files like mobi or epub include them, but html doesn't. So if I put a html file on my ebook reader, I also have to put the pictures in the same directory, right ? Or am I missing something ?

[tompe]

Originally Posted by rogue_ronin

Page numbers make zero sense. It's positively medieval.

Page numbers currently have a lot of uses. One is to be able to pace your reading of the book. Another is to give a sense of progress when reading. And another is to be able to estimate how long time it takes to finish a chapter and so on. It is not important that page number is used for this but something that have the relevant properties as page number have must be used. Number of characters is probably much better than paragraph number for this.

I am impatiently waiting for the firmware update to the Cybook Gen3 so I get "page" numbers and can start reading on my Cybook again. I totally hate the current lack of "page" numbers and have mostly read paper books lately.

[rogue_ronin]

Originally Posted by tompe

Page numbers currently have a lot of uses. One is to be able to pace your reading of the book. Another is to give a sense of progress when reading. And another is to be able to estimate how long time it takes to finish a chapter and so on. It is not important that page number is used for this but something that have the relevant properties as page number have must be used. Number of characters is probably much better than paragraph number for this.

Number of characters is going to be enormous, and difficult to comprehend. The books I've been working with lately have under 2000 paragraphs, but the number of characters is in the hundreds of thousands. And they're smallish. "Oh, today I read characters 119,567 to 134,438!"

Pacing, marking progress and estimating; none of these are specific to page numbers. Page numbers count pages, which are fluid and non-specific in an ebook. If you read 10 pages on your JetBook, and I read 10 pages on my Kindle DX, how is that in any way useful as an objective count? Unless there is an arbitrary, standard page size, font size, margin settings, etc., that all hardware readers use, regardless of their screen size? Which would be overkill, and unnecessary.

Measuring content vs. time (what all three of your terms represent) is not in any way dependent on page numbers. I use the progress bar on FBReader. I often change the font size, depending on whether I have my glasses, or I'm tired, or whatever. Progress bar doesn't move. Objective, and useful. It even has little lines to represent chapter borders. (If this is what you meant by measuring characters, then I partially agree with you.)

I am impatiently waiting for the firmware update to the Cybook Gen3 so I get "page" numbers and can start reading on my Cybook again. I totally hate the current lack of "page" numbers and have mostly read paper books lately.

I don't object to "page numbers" for those who want them; just don't hard-code them into eBooks. If you get used to the conventions of your reader, and it allows you to enjoy and learn and whatever, all good to me.

But using "page numbers" as reference for research or reporting makes no sense. Hard-coding pages into display allows no choice to the person reading them, and is especially annoying in today's world of slapdash ebook production. (Because bad habits in a time of fluidity become ingrained -- see DOS, or the petroleum engine.)

Pages in p-books measure something real. Pages in ebooks do not measure the same thing. At best, they measure "screens". And screens are not useful beyond your immediate experience of them.

A simple, useful, functional scheme for reference would be based on paragraphs, or section/paragraphs. That's how lawyers do it, and for good reason.

m a r

[pepak]

Originally Posted by rogue_ronin

Pages in p-books measure something real. Pages in ebooks do not measure the same thing. At best, they measure "screens". And screens are not useful beyond your immediate experience of them.

Specifically on Sony PRS-505, which tends to reboot once in a while and lose bookmarks, I find it useful to write bookmarked page numbers on a paper to keep a backup. Not always of course - if I can access a computer, it is easier to save the cache file, but consider a situation where I am travelling, have already bookmarked 30 or 40 pages and expect that the next crash is just around the corner...