An argument we are having at work...

ficbot · 07-29-2009, 12:33 PM

I was talking with some co-workers (one of whom does not read for fun) about a current book I am reading, and a problem I am having with it. Basically, I feel that the book does not make any sense. The two main characters get transported to the future, where there is a highly advanced technological utopia-esque society. Yet the entire world (except for a portion of mid-town Manhattan) has been rendered uninhabitable by nuclear war and other catastrophes. There are literally no people living anywhere else.

So, after pages of a parade of cool new technology including some special bathtubs, I started wondering how a society as 'large' as mid-town Manhattan would be able to sustain the manufacturing and agricultural infrastructure to support such things. It just did not make sense to me. If Manhattan was all you had to work with, you'd lose a lot of useable space just growing food to support the people, never mind manufacture the special bathtubs. It just defied logic that the society portrayed in the book could exist.

And he told me that it's all pretend anyway so it doesn't have to make sense. I say fiction or not, it still has to make sense and if there is some special explanation for something illogical, they need to clue the reader in. So, what do you think...it's all pretend so who cares, or I am right to demand an explanation.

DixieGal · 07-29-2009, 12:47 PM

They use Star Trek replicators that were built before the end of the world in a factory in New Jersey.

My scifi doesn't have to make sense, as long as the story is good.

Sparrow · 07-29-2009, 12:47 PM

I think you're right to want an explanation.
The 'willing suspension of disbelief' has its limits!

Mnementh · 07-29-2009, 12:50 PM

I totally agree with you whether fiction or not the premise behind the story and the technology must make sense (wow I think the grammar in this sentence is really bad but I can't think of any other way to say it!).

If things are just unfeasibly fantastic, as your example is, then I personally can't read the story anymore as I just start picking fault with everything and that destroys the enjoyment. I have to admit though I do the same with films most of my friends refuse to go with me anymore because I just spend most of the time picking holes in the plot lol.

ahi · 07-29-2009, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DixieGal

They use Star Trek replicators that were built before the end of the world in a factory in New Jersey.

My scifi doesn't have to make sense, as long as the story is good.

If it doesn't make sense, arguably it isn't science fiction.

- Ahi

Elfwreck · 07-29-2009, 01:09 PM

The idea, "it's fiction; it doesn't have to make sense" shows a lack of critical thinking skills. It says that you can't predict likely outcomes from given circumstances and premises... when that's how all of science works. It also shows a lack of imagination, a lack of ability to posit circumstances different from the ones that exist right now--because the idea that all not-factually-true situations are equally likely and believable is only possible for someone who never considers possibilities.

If a book snaps your disbelief suspenders, it could be that you're reading it from a different mindset than intended for the enjoyment of the book. (If you're gonna enjoy romance books, you have to accept the concept of instant-true-love-happy-ever-after, no matter how much real life tells you that it doesn't happen like that.) But it could also mean that the author has failed at worldbuilding--that she hasn't explained why Thing X works when Things Y & Z don't.

GlennD · 07-29-2009, 01:11 PM

You said the population is limited to mid-town Manhattan? Is Central Park mentioned at all? If it's not radioactive I'd imagine that it would be a large enough growing area to support a population limited to that small an area. There's also the possibility of fishing; Manhattan is almost completely surrounded by water. (Or is the river unusable as well?)

doreenjoy · 07-29-2009, 01:32 PM

Mark Twain said it best: "Of course real life is stranger than fiction. Fiction has to make sense."

Lady Blue · 07-29-2009, 01:46 PM

First off, I would find it highly unlikely that the only habitable place after a nuclear war would be a portion of Manhattan. I would think that Manhattan, being the third largest borough in New York at approximately 23 square miles and very densely populated, would be one of the FIRST places targeted by a foreign power (or terrorist group) to nuke off the face of the earth. That to me is illogical scenerio #1. How could that one itsy-bitsy spot on the planet escape all harm????

Secondly, I agree with the subsequent illogical nature of the story without explanation as to how and where this advanced technology was manufactured along with the production of enough food and water to sustain whatever population was fortunate enough to have been protected by the magical "anti-catastophe bubble" they must have had over Manhattan when the proverbial sh** hit the fan.

I pick movies apart too, especially when the story line defies possibility far beyond all reason or extreme stretch of the imagination. At least make the science and fiction reasonably plausible.

DixieGal · 07-29-2009, 01:53 PM

It is becoming clear that what we are all talking about is our frustration with bad scifi books and movies versus what can be done right if the author is skilled at telling a good story. I know that if I begin picking apart a book or movie, it is because I have suddenly realized that it is a big heaping pile of crap.

There is the point where they become so bad that they are good. I record every new SyFy network movie because they are in this category!

PS: I just reached that point with The Time Traveler's Wife. It's a train wreck and I can't put it down!

doreenjoy · 07-29-2009, 02:00 PM

Ah, but there are different rules for science fiction than literary fiction, and The Time Traveler's Wife is clearly literary fiction.

ahammer · 07-29-2009, 02:01 PM

food can be made in the park or in sky gardens

room to make thing can be made if you build up or if you build over roads
or hell make the city one big building if you realy need the room.

that being said Manhattan would be hit 1st and im not sure of where you would need to be to have the knowagle to be able to keep making suff(anything outside of what is normaly made in that area) if everything hit the fan...

somewhere near on of the google datacenters I would think.

ahammer · 07-29-2009, 02:05 PM

just thinking the issue would be where would you get the raw stuff from.. you would need to go into the nuclear waste to get the metel then treate it.

note: This should be in the Lounge right?

DixieGal · 07-29-2009, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doreenjoy

Ah, but there are different rules for science fiction than literary fiction, and The Time Traveler's Wife is clearly literary fiction.

Maybe, but in my orderly fashion, I can't not rearrange the timeline in my head. And so in a chronological progression, it is a much less interesting story, to me at least. More like an outline and less like a narrative. I'm reading on, however, hoping he leaps back and accidentally kills his own grandfather or something.

ahi · 07-29-2009, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DixieGal

Maybe, but in my orderly fashion, I can't not rearrange the timeline in my head. And so in a chronological progression, it is a much less interesting story, to me at least. More like an outline and less like a narrative. I'm reading on, however, hoping he leaps back and accidentally kills his own grandfather or something.

You might enjoy --All You Zombies-- more.

07-29-2009, 12:50 PM	#4
Mnementh Groupie Posts: 186 Karma: 3633418 Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: UK Device: Kobo Libra	I totally agree with you whether fiction or not the premise behind the story and the technology must make sense (wow I think the grammar in this sentence is really bad but I can't think of any other way to say it!). If things are just unfeasibly fantastic, as your example is, then I personally can't read the story anymore as I just start picking fault with everything and that destroys the enjoyment. I have to admit though I do the same with films most of my friends refuse to go with me anymore because I just spend most of the time picking holes in the plot lol. Last edited by Mnementh; 07-29-2009 at 12:50 PM. Reason: typo

07-29-2009, 01:53 PM	#10
DixieGal Hi There! Posts: 7,473 Karma: 2930523 Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Ft Lauderdale Device: iPad	It is becoming clear that what we are all talking about is our frustration with bad scifi books and movies versus what can be done right if the author is skilled at telling a good story. I know that if I begin picking apart a book or movie, it is because I have suddenly realized that it is a big heaping pile of crap. There is the point where they become so bad that they are good. I record every new SyFy network movie because they are in this category! PS: I just reached that point with The Time Traveler's Wife. It's a train wreck and I can't put it down! Last edited by DixieGal; 07-29-2009 at 01:57 PM.

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
IOError: [Errno 22] Invalid argument	jkcoder	Calibre	5	09-25-2010 09:28 AM
for the sake of argument...	Opus	Amazon Kindle	9	06-21-2010 10:55 PM
unpack requires a string argument of length 2	Sannepan	Calibre	2	02-23-2010 02:05 PM
How does it work*?	Sultan Rahi	OpenInkpot	3	12-29-2009 08:59 AM
8 Ways To Handle An Argument	moon light	Lounge	11	08-26-2009 09:16 PM

07-29-2009, 12:33 PM	#1
ficbot Wizard Posts: 2,409 Karma: 4132096 Join Date: Sep 2008 Device: Kindle Paperwhite/iOS Kindle App	An argument we are having at work... I was talking with some co-workers (one of whom does not read for fun) about a current book I am reading, and a problem I am having with it. Basically, I feel that the book does not make any sense. The two main characters get transported to the future, where there is a highly advanced technological utopia-esque society. Yet the entire world (except for a portion of mid-town Manhattan) has been rendered uninhabitable by nuclear war and other catastrophes. There are literally no people living anywhere else. So, after pages of a parade of cool new technology including some special bathtubs, I started wondering how a society as 'large' as mid-town Manhattan would be able to sustain the manufacturing and agricultural infrastructure to support such things. It just did not make sense to me. If Manhattan was all you had to work with, you'd lose a lot of useable space just growing food to support the people, never mind manufacture the special bathtubs. It just defied logic that the society portrayed in the book could exist. And he told me that it's all pretend anyway so it doesn't have to make sense. I say fiction or not, it still has to make sense and if there is some special explanation for something illogical, they need to clue the reader in. So, what do you think...it's all pretend so who cares, or I am right to demand an explanation.

07-29-2009, 12:47 PM	#2
DixieGal Hi There! Posts: 7,473 Karma: 2930523 Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Ft Lauderdale Device: iPad	They use Star Trek replicators that were built before the end of the world in a factory in New Jersey. My scifi doesn't have to make sense, as long as the story is good.

07-29-2009, 12:47 PM	#3
Sparrow Wizard Posts: 4,395 Karma: 1358132 Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: UK Device: Palm TX, CyBook Gen3	I think you're right to want an explanation. The 'willing suspension of disbelief' has its limits!

07-29-2009, 01:09 PM	#6
Elfwreck Grand Sorcerer Posts: 5,187 Karma: 25133758 Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: SF Bay Area, California, USA Device: Pocketbook Touch HD3 (Past: Kobo Mini, PEZ, PRS-505, Clié)	The idea, "it's fiction; it doesn't have to make sense" shows a lack of critical thinking skills. It says that you can't predict likely outcomes from given circumstances and premises... when that's how all of science works. It also shows a lack of imagination, a lack of ability to posit circumstances different from the ones that exist right now--because the idea that all not-factually-true situations are equally likely and believable is only possible for someone who never considers possibilities. If a book snaps your disbelief suspenders, it could be that you're reading it from a different mindset than intended for the enjoyment of the book. (If you're gonna enjoy romance books, you have to accept the concept of instant-true-love-happy-ever-after, no matter how much real life tells you that it doesn't happen like that.) But it could also mean that the author has failed at worldbuilding--that she hasn't explained why Thing X works when Things Y & Z don't.

07-29-2009, 01:11 PM	#7
GlennD Wizard Posts: 2,120 Karma: 17500000 Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: The Pacific NW Device: sony PRS350, iPhone, iPad	You said the population is limited to mid-town Manhattan? Is Central Park mentioned at all? If it's not radioactive I'd imagine that it would be a large enough growing area to support a population limited to that small an area. There's also the possibility of fishing; Manhattan is almost completely surrounded by water. (Or is the river unusable as well?)

07-29-2009, 01:32 PM	#8
doreenjoy 01000100 01001010 Posts: 1,889 Karma: 2400000 Join Date: Mar 2009 Device: Polyamorous	Mark Twain said it best: "Of course real life is stranger than fiction. Fiction has to make sense."

07-29-2009, 01:46 PM	#9
Lady Blue the snarky blue one Posts: 6,001 Karma: 3877825 Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: deep in the heart Device: PRS500, 505 & 600, PRST1 & T2, Kindle PW, Moto Razr, Galaxy Tab 2-10"	First off, I would find it highly unlikely that the only habitable place after a nuclear war would be a portion of Manhattan. I would think that Manhattan, being the third largest borough in New York at approximately 23 square miles and very densely populated, would be one of the FIRST places targeted by a foreign power (or terrorist group) to nuke off the face of the earth. That to me is illogical scenerio #1. How could that one itsy-bitsy spot on the planet escape all harm???? Secondly, I agree with the subsequent illogical nature of the story without explanation as to how and where this advanced technology was manufactured along with the production of enough food and water to sustain whatever population was fortunate enough to have been protected by the magical "anti-catastophe bubble" they must have had over Manhattan when the proverbial sh** hit the fan. I pick movies apart too, especially when the story line defies possibility far beyond all reason or extreme stretch of the imagination. At least make the science and fiction reasonably plausible.

07-29-2009, 02:00 PM	#11
doreenjoy 01000100 01001010 Posts: 1,889 Karma: 2400000 Join Date: Mar 2009 Device: Polyamorous	Ah, but there are different rules for science fiction than literary fiction, and The Time Traveler's Wife is clearly literary fiction.

07-29-2009, 02:01 PM	#12
ahammer cybershark Posts: 314 Karma: 2227 Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: AZ Device: none	food can be made in the park or in sky gardens room to make thing can be made if you build up or if you build over roads or hell make the city one big building if you realy need the room. that being said Manhattan would be hit 1st and im not sure of where you would need to be to have the knowagle to be able to keep making suff(anything outside of what is normaly made in that area) if everything hit the fan... somewhere near on of the google datacenters I would think.

07-29-2009, 02:05 PM	#13
ahammer cybershark Posts: 314 Karma: 2227 Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: AZ Device: none	just thinking the issue would be where would you get the raw stuff from.. you would need to go into the nuclear waste to get the metel then treate it. note: This should be in the Lounge right?