"An Apology from Amazon" - Page 4

gmvasco · 07-25-2009, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ahi

There is a curious lack of participation in this thread by the anti-copyright infringement crowd. It's a shame I practically had to do the denouncing all by myself.

- Ahi

'nough said.

slayda · 07-25-2009, 11:51 AM

The people who purchased these books were not purposely infringing copyrights
IMO, what is being objected to is Amazon's vigilante tactics
Amazon appropriately apologized for these tactics (for which they had no official authority)
The issue most had, IMO, had nothing to do with copyright infringement (even though that might have been what initiated the situation) but with individuals' personal rights against invasion by officially unauthorized entities (and I do realize a case could be made that they were personally authorized by the users' agreements but Amazon has never been officially authorized to act as "copyright police")

griffonwing · 07-25-2009, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slayda

The people who purchased these books were not purposely infringing copyrights
IMO, what is being objected to is Amazon's vigilante tactics
Amazon appropriately apologized for these tactics (for which they had no official authority)
The issue most had, IMO, had nothing to do with copyright infringement (even though that might have been what initiated the situation) but with individuals' personal rights against invasion by officially unauthorized entities (and I do realize a case could be made that they were personally authorized by the users' agreements but Amazon has never been officially authorized to act as "copyright police")

Yeah! You don't see a country like America butting their nose where it doesn't belong, do ya!?

daesdaemar · 07-25-2009, 09:24 PM

I am utterly amazed at those who continue to believe it was acceptable for Amazon to delete the "illegal" content from people's Kindles. The analogy that has been used is perfectly applicable: had they sold you an "illegal" paper book NO ONE would agree it was acceptable for them to enter your home to take it back.

HarryT · 07-26-2009, 03:53 AM

I'm sure that there are people who are equally "amazed" by your viewpoint, daesdaemar. It is possible for people to hold different viewpoints on these matters and, for example, to believe that it is possible for different things to be done with eBooks than with paper books.

Sonist · 07-26-2009, 03:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

I'm sure that there are people who are equally "amazed" by your viewpoint, daesdaemar. It is possible for people to hold different viewpoints on these matters and, for example, to believe that it is possible for different things to be done with eBooks than with paper books.

Possible, of course.

But not sensible....

bill the smith · 07-26-2009, 04:28 AM

I have a Sony 700.
I am not prepared to buy a device such as Kindle which permits Amazon to remotely delete material from the device.
If they did wrong (as they now admit) the solution is not to apologise in Obamese but to fix the Kindle software so that they cannot delete.
This sort of infringement of privacy must be resisted.

HansTWN · 07-26-2009, 04:49 AM

the question is: "do they really believe they were wrong, or did they just admit they were wrong to do damage control?"

They undoubtedly behaved rather stupidly. They should have asked users to delete the illegal books and then, after a few days checked up and only deleted if the books were still on the Kindles. That would have satisfied those who would feel their privacy was invaded and only angered those who wanted to keep the illegal copy.

bill the smith · 07-26-2009, 07:02 AM

Were the copies of Orwell's books necessarily illegal?
People may have scanned and OCRd a legally owned book.

HarryT · 07-26-2009, 07:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bill the smith

Were the copies of Orwell's books necessarily illegal?
People may have scanned and OCRd a legally owned book.

Amazon did not delete any copy of "Nineteen Eighty-Four" that may have been installed on a Kindle; they deleted the specific version of it that was being improperly sold.

Krystian Galaj · 07-26-2009, 07:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

Amazon did not delete any copy of "Nineteen Eighty-Four" that may have been installed on a Kindle; they deleted the specific version of it that was being improperly sold.

They also deleted all user-created annotations for the books, which were users' property. At least one student lost all notes for his summer essay this way.

bill the smith · 07-26-2009, 09:22 AM

Once again, thanks again HarryT for your outstanding depth and detail of knowledge. You are a legend.
I am glad that the Amazon software is so smart that it is able to distinguish between different versions of 1984. I wonder how you know that.
Pity it wasnt smart enough to identify and leave the students notes intact.
I detect that you, HarryT, support Amazons conduct even tho they were the ones who had (to use your expression) improperly sold them.
I always thought that if there was a sale then the purchaser owned the goods or at least the right to possess them.
No doubt HarryT will enlighten me, but if his "improperly sold" concept is right, the purchases from Kindle must all be conditional, with Amazon retaining the unfettered discretion to cancel the sale and delete the product.
You would have to be crazy to purchase on those conditions.
Or have I got it wrong, yet again, HarryT"?

HarryT · 07-26-2009, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bill the smith

I am glad that the Amazon software is so smart that it is able to distinguish between different versions of 1984. I wonder how you know that.

The way that it probably works (and this is just speculation on my part) is that each book is tagged with a specific ID, and Amazon's servers are sending out a command of the form "delete book ID xxxxx". The server knows which specific files have been sent to which specific devices, so this would be very easy to do. It needs to be able to do something of that nature in order to clean up old subscription content, for example.

griffonwing · 07-26-2009, 11:27 AM

Is there a way to state that you do NOT wish to destroy old subscriptions? What If I wanted to keep my nE-wspapers for backup purposes? What If I got todays paper, started reading, then got a call, had to drive 12 hours to help my brother who's been stranded. I never get a chance to finish the paper. The next time I read, it's updated to the current date and I'm screwed.

How exactly does the newspaper subscription work?

HarryT · 07-26-2009, 12:06 PM

I'm sure that someone who owns a Kindle can give you more details, but I believe, from memory, that it retains the most recent so-many copies of a newspaper (a week, perhaps? something like that). I believe also that you can explicitly mark an issue to be kept. I'm not certain of the exact details, I'm afraid.

07-25-2009, 11:51 AM	#47
slayda Retired & reading more! Posts: 2,764 Karma: 1884247 Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: North Alabama, USA Device: Kindle 1, iPad Air 2, iPhone 6S+, Kobo Aura One	The people who purchased these books were not purposely infringing copyrights IMO, what is being objected to is Amazon's vigilante tactics Amazon appropriately apologized for these tactics (for which they had no official authority) The issue most had, IMO, had nothing to do with copyright infringement (even though that might have been what initiated the situation) but with individuals' personal rights against invasion by officially unauthorized entities (and I do realize a case could be made that they were personally authorized by the users' agreements but Amazon has never been officially authorized to act as "copyright police")

07-26-2009, 04:28 AM	#52
bill the smith Banned Posts: 42 Karma: 10 Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Australia Device: sony prs 700	Amazon Kindle phones home I have a Sony 700. I am not prepared to buy a device such as Kindle which permits Amazon to remotely delete material from the device. If they did wrong (as they now admit) the solution is not to apologise in Obamese but to fix the Kindle software so that they cannot delete. This sort of infringement of privacy must be resisted.

07-26-2009, 04:49 AM	#53
HansTWN Wizard Posts: 4,538 Karma: 264065402 Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Taiwan Device: HP Touchpad, Sony Duo 13, Lumia 920, Kobo Aura HD	the question is: "do they really believe they were wrong, or did they just admit they were wrong to do damage control?" They undoubtedly behaved rather stupidly. They should have asked users to delete the illegal books and then, after a few days checked up and only deleted if the books were still on the Kindles. That would have satisfied those who would feel their privacy was invaded and only angered those who wanted to keep the illegal copy. Last edited by HansTWN; 07-26-2009 at 04:52 AM.

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07-25-2009, 09:24 PM	#49
daesdaemar Addict Posts: 210 Karma: 4282 Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Florida Device: Sony 505, Kindle 3, iPad 3	I am utterly amazed at those who continue to believe it was acceptable for Amazon to delete the "illegal" content from people's Kindles. The analogy that has been used is perfectly applicable: had they sold you an "illegal" paper book NO ONE would agree it was acceptable for them to enter your home to take it back.

07-26-2009, 03:53 AM	#50
HarryT eBook Enthusiast Posts: 85,544 Karma: 93383099 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: UK Device: Kindle Oasis 2, iPad Pro 10.5", iPhone 6	I'm sure that there are people who are equally "amazed" by your viewpoint, daesdaemar. It is possible for people to hold different viewpoints on these matters and, for example, to believe that it is possible for different things to be done with eBooks than with paper books.

07-26-2009, 07:02 AM	#54
bill the smith Banned Posts: 42 Karma: 10 Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Australia Device: sony prs 700	Were the copies of Orwell's books necessarily illegal? People may have scanned and OCRd a legally owned book.

07-26-2009, 09:22 AM	#57
bill the smith Banned Posts: 42 Karma: 10 Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Australia Device: sony prs 700	Once again, thanks again HarryT for your outstanding depth and detail of knowledge. You are a legend. I am glad that the Amazon software is so smart that it is able to distinguish between different versions of 1984. I wonder how you know that. Pity it wasnt smart enough to identify and leave the students notes intact. I detect that you, HarryT, support Amazons conduct even tho they were the ones who had (to use your expression) improperly sold them. I always thought that if there was a sale then the purchaser owned the goods or at least the right to possess them. No doubt HarryT will enlighten me, but if his "improperly sold" concept is right, the purchases from Kindle must all be conditional, with Amazon retaining the unfettered discretion to cancel the sale and delete the product. You would have to be crazy to purchase on those conditions. Or have I got it wrong, yet again, HarryT"?

07-26-2009, 11:27 AM	#59
griffonwing Suave Swabby, Savvy? Posts: 1,602 Karma: 520350 Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Harrison, ARrrr, USA - southern Ozark mountains Device: Slate Blue PEZ (Astak Pocket Pro), CVSCX-9300 Quad-band watch phone	Is there a way to state that you do NOT wish to destroy old subscriptions? What If I wanted to keep my nE-wspapers for backup purposes? What If I got todays paper, started reading, then got a call, had to drive 12 hours to help my brother who's been stranded. I never get a chance to finish the paper. The next time I read, it's updated to the current date and I'm screwed. How exactly does the newspaper subscription work?

07-26-2009, 12:06 PM	#60
HarryT eBook Enthusiast Posts: 85,544 Karma: 93383099 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: UK Device: Kindle Oasis 2, iPad Pro 10.5", iPhone 6	I'm sure that someone who owns a Kindle can give you more details, but I believe, from memory, that it retains the most recent so-many copies of a newspaper (a week, perhaps? something like that). I believe also that you can explicitly mark an issue to be kept. I'm not certain of the exact details, I'm afraid.