"The book industry is gonna get Napstered..."

[Jaime_Astorga]

Originally Posted by PKFFW

So because there isn't any they can do about it that makes it "right"? The public has the right to do it because the author can't stop them?

So I guess slaverly was "right" because there was nothing the black Africans could do to stop themselves from being caught and shipped of the the good ol' US of A?

Cheers,
PKFFW

My point is that personal back up copies, fair use, etc... do not stem from the mercy of authors and publishers who have agreed such things are fair, but are rather things against which they cannot do something because they are legally provided for. If they weren't, there would probably be a lot more of a movement to try to restrict them.

[PKFFW]

Originally Posted by ahi

As a publisher, I find it amusing that there are so many people--other than Steve whose has a legitimate, if self-serving stake in the matter--rabidly defending the most morally bankrupt and spineless aspects of my industry's business model. Well... more sad than amusing, really.

- Ahi

So once again when someone disagrees with the idea of "every digital book is valueless and should therefore be free" they are accused of "rabidly defending" the old business model?

So easy to make straw man arguments rather than actually discussing the topic at hand isn't it?

I and many others have repeatedly stated that yes the old ways must change and that authors and publishers must adapt. However, when we disagree that the change needed is to simply force authors to give their work away for free we are accused of defending the "old ways".

Then to top it all of those self same "old ways" are used and applied to one particular aspect of the digital era in order to justify the position that digital media should be free!

Cheers,
PKFFW

[ahi]

Originally Posted by PKFFW

So because there isn't any they can do about it that makes it "right"? The public has the right to do it because the author can't stop them?

So I guess slaverly was "right" because there was nothing the black Africans could do to stop themselves from being caught and shipped of the the good ol' US of A?

Cheers,
PKFFW

You really don't feel embarrassed at having made an analogy of this calibre?

Too many people in this thread talking out of their ass...

- Ahi

[PKFFW]

Originally Posted by Jaime_Astorga

You are missing the point. Not "everything" has changed... humans still breathe air, energy is still equal to mass times the speed of light squared, and the laws of economics still hold. When talking about how the "old ways" don't work anymore, one refers to the ease with which digital works, as opposed to physical works, can be distributed and copied. It is that which has changed, and it is that which makes some of the old ways not apply anymore. But we are still operating under the constraints of economics.

And you are missing the point too.

Those advocating digital media should be free because there is limitless supply are applying the supply/demand equation to only one part of the whole in order to justify their position. That is, they are saying supply of copies is limitless so therefore they should be free.

Well what about supply and demand of the ability to create good work? No, lets not apply it to that because then we would have to admit that maybe the supply of talent is not limitless and therefore should be regarded as having some value and therefore some reasonable payment should be made.

Heaven forbid!

Cheers,
PKFFW

[ahi]

Originally Posted by PKFFW

So once again when someone disagrees with the idea of "every digital book is valueless and should therefore be free" they are accused of "rabidly defending" the old business model?

So easy to make straw man arguments rather than actually discussing the topic at hand isn't it?

I and many others have repeatedly stated that yes the old ways must change and that authors and publishers must adapt. However, when we disagree that the change needed is to simply force authors to give their work away for free we are accused of defending the "old ways".

Then to top it all of those self same "old ways" are used and applied to one particular aspect of the digital era in order to justify the position that digital media should be free!

Cheers,
PKFFW

To be perfectly frank, it really makes no sense for me to be arguing.

Your views are already outdated and will ultimately lose out to far more progressive ways of interpreting and dealing with copyrights. (Which, unlike some others on my side of the argument, I do not see disappearing--but do see becoming progressively more toothless against individuals. Which is just as it should.)

Despite using clever phrases like "straw men", quite a lot of what you (and certain others) write is nothing short of outlandishly out of touch... and even when plain facts are pointed out to you, you go off on some incomprehensible tangent de jour that is neither relevant nor well-conceived.

I'm sorry. Doubtless we could (and I hope will) have more worthwhile conversations on other topics. But on this subject, I have difficulty taking what you say seriously.

- Ahi

[ahi]

And--time to cheer--I am done. This thread has become a generous waste of everybody's time.

I will do my best to let it die the undignified death that is surely its lot, and urge others to do the same.

- Ahi

[PKFFW]

Originally Posted by Abecedary

I was going to stay out of this thread, but this needed to be commented on. If someone has a true passion for doing something, they'll do it regardless of whether they can make a living at it or if it will sell. They'll create because they have a need to create. It's rare to find an author (or musician, or painter, etc) who actually makes a good living doing what they love on their own terms. But there are tons of all of those who do it because they love doing it. And they don't care whether people think their work is good or bad. So if you're a "good" writer who stops doing it just because you can't make a living at it, then I say good riddance. As far as I'm concerned, that's no different from hrumphing and taking your ball home with you. There are more than enough other "good" writers to take your place who write because they love to write. And I will be more than happy to compensate them for their efforts.

And because they love writing and have a passion for it we should all feel ok about just taking their work for free??

Ahi mentioned earlier that he is very happy in his job, should he be paid nothing because he likes to do it?

I am a fire fighter and love my job and last intake there were 17000 applicants for only 200 jobs, should we be paid nothing because there are so many others willing to do the job?

What a completely selfish and parasitic idea it is to say that since someone has a passion for something that gives you the right to go and get their work for free and if they don't like it then good riddance to them.

Cheers,
PKFFW

[PKFFW]

Originally Posted by ahi

Nobody pays me to sit on my ass and write about adventurous freight captains threatened by dormant viruses and spiders!!!

Boo hoo... If only every pirate in the world--most of whom actually materially contribute to human civilization--simultaneously had a heart-attack. Ah, that would be the life!

- Ahi

This really sums up your point of view doesn't it?

You don't think someone should be paid to "sit on their ass and write stories" when you have to go out and "materially contribute to human civilisation" for a living.

Bit of jealousy maybe?

And lets not even discuss whether contributiing aritistically should be more or less valued that someone working in a factory to bang out another useless car part or battery or toilet paper roll for gods sake!

Cheers,
PKFFW

[PKFFW]

Originally Posted by Jaime_Astorga

My point is that personal back up copies, fair use, etc... do not stem from the mercy of authors and publishers who have agreed such things are fair, but are rather things against which they cannot do something because they are legally provided for. If they weren't, there would probably be a lot more of a movement to try to restrict them.

And I have repeatedly stated that I am not talking about fair use, backing up copies, sharing with friends et al! I have repeated that ad nauseum!

I am talking about the idea that people should have the right to download a free copy of someone elses work from the internet because they don't want to pay for it.

Cheers,
PKFFW

[PKFFW]

Originally Posted by ahi

You really don't feel embarrassed at having made an analogy of this calibre?

Too many people in this thread talking out of their ass...

- Ahi

No I don't, because I am not comparing copyright infringement to slaverly.

I am comparing the logic that states simply because someone can not stop you doing something that fact gives you the right to do it.

Cheers,
PKFFW

[PKFFW]

Originally Posted by ahi

To be perfectly frank, it really makes no sense for me to be arguing.

Certainly not when you refuse to actually discuss the point put forward but instead choose to intentionally subvert and confuse the issue so as to make your point seem more valid.

Originally Posted by ahi

Your views are already outdated and will ultimately lose out to far more progressive ways of interpreting and dealing with copyrights. (Which, unlike some others on my side of the argument, I do not see disappearing--but do see becoming progressively more toothless against individuals. Which is just as it should.)

It is more progressive to say "I can do this so therefore I have the right to do it"?

Seems to me that was the logic that allowed slaverly to continue for so long.

Same logic that says might makes right.

If that is "progressive" then I'm all for trying to halt progress.

Originally Posted by ahi

Despite using clever phrases like "straw men", quite a lot of what you (and certain others) write is nothing short of outlandishly out of touch... and even when plain facts are pointed out to you, you go off on some incomprehensible tangent de jour that is neither relevant nor well-conceived.

Out of touch? Tangents?

Who is the one who once again resorted to accusing others of arguing something they have repeatedly stated they are not? How's that for tangents?

As for plain facts, the only "facts" put forward is the suggestion that piracy can lead to future sales. I would say this "fact" is highly debatable and is reliant upon nothing other than what people claim to have done when they fill in surveys. Personal accounts behind an annonymous survey are highly unreliable.

Originally Posted by ahi

I'm sorry. Doubtless we could (and I hope will) have more worthwhile conversations on other topics. But on this subject, I have difficulty taking what you say seriously.

- Ahi

I'm all for having other worthwhile conversations on other topics.

On this topic, I too can not take what you say seriously. Anyone who argues creators should be made to give their work away for free simply because they can't stop others from getting the work for free is the one talking out of their ass in my opinion.

Cheers,
PKFFW

[PKFFW]

Originally Posted by ahi

And--time to cheer--I am done. This thread has become a generous waste of everybody's time.

I will do my best to let it die the undignified death that is surely its lot, and urge others to do the same.

- Ahi

Will believe when I see it sinces you have claimed this before.

Cheers,
PKFFW

[carld]

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

If a writer is earning half of minimum wage, maybe he should spend 4 hours a day at a minimum wage job, earning the same money and then write to his/hers heart content in the rest of the time....

Or maybe people should pay for what they want instead of downloading pirated copies off the internet?

[HansTWN]

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

But that's the point! If you want to make money, you do things that make money! If being a writer doesn't pay, then either take the vow of poverty and be a full-time writer, or do something that pays lots of money. Then if you want to write, treat it as a hobby on the side.

If a writer is earning half of minimum wage, maybe he should spend 4 hours a day at a minimum wage job, earning the same money and then write to his/hers heart content in the rest of the time....

That is exactly not the point! We do want writers to be able to make money by writing, not by serving in restaurants. Because we feel that their work is worth paying a little money for. Not every writer is worth something to every person, but let the buyers decide. And those who want free books, just take those that are legally free. Why shouldn't a writer be able to make a living writing when a plumber can doing plumbing?

I don't even see why you want this. If you don't like a book --- just stay away from it. Spreading it around just is mean and useless, like kicking someone for the fun of it. If you do like a book, why not pay a few bucks to support the creator to write some more good stuff? Just like you would with any physical product. Why are you so bent on hurting people, just because they make their living in a way that makes it easier to steal their work?

[HansTWN]

Originally Posted by ahi
Nobody pays me to sit on my ass and write about adventurous freight captains threatened by dormant viruses and spiders!!!

If that really sums up your high opinion on the works of nearly all writers (I still believe you are pulling our legs), then I am wondering what you are doing in a forum like this?

And if your point is that some writing is worthless crap --- as we can all agree -- then why not let the market place decide? Besides, something I consider worthless nonsense may be highly entertaining for others. Furthermore in every product category there is plenty of junk. And people decide with their pocketbooks which products succeed and which don't.