"The book industry is gonna get Napstered..."

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

You want a pension as a writer? You can buy an annuity as you go, and it's probably safer that a corporate pension.

And how many writers, earning what (by some accounts) is less than half the minimum wage right now, much less in this "free book" world, are going to be able to buy an annuity? They'll be lucky if they can buy a hamburger at that wage.

[Abecedary]

Originally Posted by GlennD

And what kind of output will your good, passionate writers have? Someone who writes solely because they love it still has to eat. Someone who is out working a 40 hour job and is squeezing in writing on top of it is clearly going to write far fewer pages than someone who can spend that 40 hours a week writing. I like to read those big thick multi-volume fantasy epics - I don't see how anyone could ever finish one while holding down a day job.

And yet easily the best known of those multi-volume fantasy epics was written by a man who was working full-time as a professor. And he wrote it because he had a story that he wanted to tell...to his children.

[ahi]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

And how many writers, earning what (by some accounts) is less than half the minimum wage right now, much less in this "free book" world, are going to be able to buy an annuity? They'll be lucky if they can buy a hamburger at that wage.

Nobody pays me to sit on my ass and write about adventurous freight captains threatened by dormant viruses and spiders!!!

Boo hoo... If only every pirate in the world--most of whom actually materially contribute to human civilization--simultaneously had a heart-attack. Ah, that would be the life!

- Ahi

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by GlennD

And what kind of output will your good, passionate writers have? Someone who writes solely because they love it still has to eat. Someone who is out working a 40 hour job and is squeezing in writing on top of it is clearly going to write far fewer pages than someone who can spend that 40 hours a week writing. I like to read those big thick multi-volume fantasy epics - I don't see how anyone could ever finish one while holding down a day job.

I've been reading "Grumbles from the Grave" by Robert Heinlein recently. As far as I can tell from his own accounts, he was not a man who wrote because he "loved" it. He wrote because he wanted the income, and he was talented enough and prolific enough to ensure that he made enough to support himself. In a "free book" world, we wouldn't have any of his works. He would have probably been working as an engineer at some government base instead.

And if he hadn't developed TB aboard ship, we never would have heard from his writing either. He really wanted to be a career military officer.

The times were different when he wrote. There was a much greater reading populace, and less competition with other media, which allowed writers to make more money because more money went into the system. All writers, relatively speaking. You also could make good money as a voice on a radio show, as well. Try doing that today. (leaving out the political hacks of all persuasions, please.) He made the modern equivalent of $18,000 for Day after Tomorrow and more for Beyond This Horizon. And that was from a pulp magazine. Lester Dent was make the current equivalent of $15,000 an issue for Doc Savage in the 1930's. Show me a current magazine that pays like that today. (And those number were for an initial sale, no royalties attached.) Heinlein made over $1,000 for each of the slicks he sold in the late 1940's to early 1950's. In today's dollars, that would be equal to $12,000 to $15,000 per 6,000 word story in today's dollars. Show me markets like that today. And it's not because of e-book piracy, because you didn't have markets like that 10 years ago, either.

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

And how many writers, earning what (by some accounts) is less than half the minimum wage right now, much less in this "free book" world, are going to be able to buy an annuity? They'll be lucky if they can buy a hamburger at that wage.

But that's the point! If you want to make money, you do things that make money! If being a writer doesn't pay, then either take the vow of poverty and be a full-time writer, or do something that pays lots of money. Then if you want to write, treat it as a hobby on the side.

If a writer is earning half of minimum wage, maybe he should spend 4 hours a day at a minimum wage job, earning the same money and then write to his/hers heart content in the rest of the time....

[GlennD]

Originally Posted by Abecedary

And yet easily the best known of those multi-volume fantasy epics was written by a man who was working full-time as a professor. And he wrote it because he had a story that he wanted to tell...to his children.

Ironically enough, the Lord of the Rings was published in an unauthorized paperback edition in the US. When the authorized edition was published soon after, there was a quote from Tolkien on the back asking anyone who respected the author's wishes to buy the authorized edition, and no other.

Tolkien didn't like piracy any more than any other author.

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

Of course there's no evidence, since there's no way to accurately measure whether or not a pirate might have bought a book if they hadn't pirated it.

There's a fair amount of evidence that (at the moment) making an ebook version available for free increases sales of the paper version of the book. See Eric Flint's essays for details.

Of course, this says nothing about how 'piracy' affects sales of ebooks. But I think, as with music, if ebooks are available at an easily searched store for reasonable prices (yours certainly are ), then people are much more likely to buy than to try to find and download a 'darknet' copy.

My time is certainly worth more than a few dollars per hour. And finding, downloading, possibly converting darknet copies is way too much hassle.

[Sonist]

I'll jump in with a couple of observations:

Copyright serves a purpose mostly to deter non-permitted commercial exploitation of a work. At the individual purchaser level, factors such as price and availability are paramount. And of course, all is trumped by the desirability of the product to the purchaser.

If somebody desires the product, they are generally willing to pay a price for it. For most products, there is some price point, where profits are maximized.

Apple seems to have found a sweet spot with iTunes, and its sales are better than many would have imagined a few years ago.

Similarly, sales at the Apple App store are booming.

As we all know, a large portion of the songs on iTunes can be obtained for free from "darknet." And the iPhone can be jailbroken in about a minute, without any programming skills.

Yet, when the price is right, the intended audience seems to respond, and buy. Provided, that the product is desirable to them.

Books are no different.

It just seems to me, that the publishing industry has not learned from the music industry's experience, and keeps pushing restricted content, at high prices, and in a myriad proprietary formats.

Which will only fuel piracy. Thus, because of its shortsightedness, the industry may very well get "napstered."

[Abecedary]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

Of course, this says nothing about how 'piracy' affects sales of ebooks. But I think, as with music, if ebooks are available at an easily searched store for reasonable prices (yours certainly are ), then people are much more likely to buy than to try to find and download a 'darknet' copy.

My time is certainly worth more than a few dollars per hour. And finding, downloading, possibly converting darknet copies is way too much hassle.

Hear hear! I have a stash of ebooks that I downloaded 10 years or so ago when I was broke. I only ever read a handful of them (mostly due to getting tired of reading on a Palm IIIe or a laptop). When I got my Sony Reader, I pulled that stash out and started digging through it. After remembering how horrible the formatting/proofing was on most of those books (many that had been "proofed" and versioned 4 or 5 times previously), I quickly turned around and bought legitimate epubs and LRFs. Sure I can easily get darknet copies of many books, but I know what the quality is like on most of those (hell, many completely eliminate any and all uses of italics!), so I instead buy copies when I can.

[ahi]

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

But that's the point! If you want to make money, you do things that make money! If being a writer doesn't pay, then either take the vow of poverty and be a full-time writer, or do something that pays lots of money. Then if you want to write, treat it as a hobby on the side.

If a writer is earning half of minimum wage, maybe he should spend 4 hours a day at a minimum wage job, earning the same money and then write to his/hers heart content in the rest of the time....

The fact that this has to be suggested probably means that it will never be understood.

You are, of course, utterly utterly right.

- Ahi

[ahi]

Originally Posted by Abecedary

Hear hear! I have a stash of ebooks that I downloaded 10 years or so ago when I was broke. I only ever read a handful of them (mostly due to getting tired of reading on a Palm IIIe or a laptop). When I got my Sony Reader, I pulled that stash out and started digging through it. After remembering how horrible the formatting/proofing was on most of those books (many that had been "proofed" and versioned 4 or 5 times previously), I quickly turned around and bought legitimate epubs and LRFs. Sure I can easily get darknet copies of many books, but I know what the quality is like on most of those (hell, many completely eliminate any and all uses of italics!), so I instead buy copies when I can.

But how does result in guaranteed middle-class level income for talentless hacks and their publishers, and rap-sensation superstar level income for actually talented writers and their coat-tail riding publishers?

That's the chief problem that needs to be solved, judging by this thread!

- Ahi

[ahi]

Originally Posted by Sonist

Which will only fuel piracy. Thus, because of its shortsightedness, the industry may very well get "napstered."

I hope it will. The publishing industry has increasingly evidently become a colon badly in need of flushing out.

- Ahi

[Abecedary]

Originally Posted by ahi

But how does result in guaranteed middle-class level income for talentless hacks and their publishers, and rap-sensation superstar level income for actually talented writers and their coat-tail riding publishers?

That's the chief problem that needs to be solved, judging by this thread!

- Ahi

Ahh yes, that is quite a dilemma. Sadly I don't have an answer.

[PKFFW]

Originally Posted by anappo

> No DRM, fair use policy, etc etc. I think it will
> come one day. One thing that is hampering its' introduction
> though, is the idea that anyone should be allowed to
> upload any file they want for the entire internet
> connected world to access for free.

If there is evidence that DRM, geo-restrictions, device lock-ins, delayed releases and hardcover-level pricing has caused less people to upload, can you point me to your sources? Common sense suggests the opposite is true.

> Until people get that idea out of their heads and replace
> it with the idea that paying a reasonable fee for digital
> media is ok and fair, authors and publishers will continue
> to drag the chain.

So, until "authors and publishers" somehow measure that the people on internet now "have ideas out of their heads", "people on the internet" should excercise their right to not consume content - as both downloading from darknet and paying for DRM-infested content are systemically harmful and therefore - immoral.

Downloading from darknet is illegal - however, unless it is actually possible for me to somehow pay for a product that is in usable format, it is impossible for me to cause economic harm to the author that way.

Paying for DRM-ed content and then removing ot for it to be useful, is also illegal -and- is a signal to the industry that hey - the idiots are actually paying for this - this DRM-thingy must be good!

Paying for DRM-ed content and then failing to remove the DRM is stupid as it restricts me to some arbitrary subset of available hardware. Which in turn restricts me to some arbitrary subset of content. AND is for all I know, also illegal, as the industry standard contracts restrict sales to redhead residents of Alaska, or some such.

If the only legal way for a customer to please your industry is not to buy from you at all, then people getting your stuff for free is hardly your most damaging problem.

> It's a two way street and requires both parties to change

Realistically, the change is going towards more darknet, with every passing year. Baen has been doing more or less the right thing for 10 years now - noone in the anglo-american publishing industry has followed. Because of content-hardware lock-ins, the hardware business is not competitive enough and develops slowly. Because of expensive readers, horror stories about DRM and confusion about formats, shifting from paper-based tech is slow as hell. This is exactly how the content industry likes it - to preserve status quo. Blaming the non-change on pirates is justification, nothing more.

Paradoxically, from consumer point of view, a period of truly rampant piracy might actually be a good thing. Eventually the publishing establishment will get hit in their pockets hard enough to force them to out-compete the pirates. As far as I can tell, this is what happened in russia. From consumer perspective - with stellar success, not sure how happy the authors are with it, but unlike before - they are getting paid.

My actual point was that I think DRM free products, with full ownership will come eventually. The industry is moving that way. I think it is a good thing and support it.

I still believe that one thing that is hampering its' introduction is the idea that everything should be free and that anyone should have the right to upload a copy to the net for anyone who wants it to get it for free.

So in short, I agree with your point of view, I simply disagree that because one has issues with the product as it is now that gives them the right to go get the product for free. I also disagree with the prevailing idea that all digital media is valueless and therefore should be given away for free.

Originally Posted by anappo

I suppose, the key point of this whole rant is: "free" is -not- the only significant reason for customers to turn to darknet.

Sorry but I just disagree with this too. I would add though, as I did in my previous post, that besides free there is also "not willing to pay the price asked". I think it is the only significant reason and all the rest is just window dressing to justify it.

As you even said, and I totally agree, most are willing to pay a fair and reasonable price for the ease and convenience of getting a well formatted, DRM free book that they can own so if they do not think the price asked is fair and reasonable they go download it for free.

Cheers,
PKFFW

[PKFFW]

Originally Posted by Jaime_Astorga

"Agreed?" More like things they can't do anything about because they are allowed by law!

So because there isn't any they can do about it that makes it "right"? The public has the right to do it because the author can't stop them?

So I guess slaverly was "right" because there was nothing the black Africans could do to stop themselves from being caught and shipped of the the good ol' US of A?

Cheers,
PKFFW