Makes me glad my reader is not connected

[Shaggy]

Originally Posted by Kali Yuga

I'm saying first and foremost, it is irrelevant where the data is stored.

No, it is absolutely relevant.

And I was also trying to point out that many companies engage in the same types of data structures, with the same potential consequences (e.g. MMORPG's wiping your character).

As I said, the location of the date is relevant. In the MMORPG example, the company is deleting data stored on THEIR servers, not your PC. It is also made clear to the users upfront that they do not own that data.

Amazon deleted an entry in their databases; this in turn removed the book from the user's accounts. You turn on Whispernet, the data gets synced. New books show up, old newspapers get removed, bookmarks and "last page read" gets synced.

You forgot the part about "... and eBooks that you own get deleted from your device".

The change that Amazon makes to their database is irrelevant. When they sync with your kindle and delete eBooks you own from your physical device, that's what we're objecting to.

Since you are syncing your device with their databases, while again I can see the dislike for the process, I'm having a hard time seeing how this constitutes "unauthorized access."

I never said it was "unauthorized access" for them to get on your device. Other's may have said so, but that's not what I'm objecting to. Yes, you grant Amazon access in the same way that you grant Microsoft access to your PC. However, I don't believe that Amazon has the right to deleted products which you legally own without your consent.

[Alisa]

Originally Posted by griffonwing

Yes, I know that, but you miss the point. Amazon claimed it was a publisher reneging, and pulled the books from the library/kindles. Therefore, in the event that a publisher really DID renege, Amazon has already said/proven they'd still do it.



I don't think it was a misquote. I think it was Amazon not really knowing the full reasons themselves, or hiding the fact that it was another PD fiasco.

It was actually quoted, so I highly doubt you're going to "quote your rendition of a paraphrase". But I very well could be mistaken

My understanding is that someone who contacted customer service about a deletion was told this by the customer service person. That is far from an official Amazon statement. I've seen plenty of misinformation come from CSRs over the years. Sometimes they speculate or have misunderstood the position themselves. If all they knew was the title was no longer available, then they may have filled in the gap themselves. Maybe they simply told the customer that it was no longer available from the publisher (not knowing why or if that was the reason for the deletion) and the customer incorrectly connected the dots and passed it on as fact.

What we do know is that Boyd Morrison's book has been pulled now that he's signed with Simon & Schuster and people who bought it when it was self-published still have access. I would take a real example rather than that game of telephone any day.

[griffonwing]

Originally Posted by Alisa

What we do know is that Boyd Morrison's book has been pulled now that he's signed with Simon & Schuster and people who bought it when it was self-published still have access. I would take a real example rather than that game of telephone any day.

Well, that actually IS a ray of light in the dark abyss of the Amazon Basin.

[Alisa]

Originally Posted by Shaggy

As I said, the location of the date is relevant. In the MMORPG example, the company is deleting data stored on THEIR servers, not your PC. It is also made clear to the users upfront that they do not own that data.

MMORPGs do, however, push software updates to your computer that you must accept to continue playing. They, like Amazon, do state in their ToS that they reserve the right to completely change the game on you at any time.

[Shaggy]

Originally Posted by Alisa

MMORPGs do, however, push software updates to your computer that you must accept to continue playing. They, like Amazon, do state in their ToS that they reserve the right to completely change the game on you at any time.

Pushing software updates and deleting products that you own are different things.

[Sonist]

Originally Posted by Kali Yuga

Oooookay.
... The relevant data is stored on Amazon's servers....
... the Computer Fraud and Abuse act does not apply... True... unless the click-through agreement essentially grants Amazon access to the device....

I knew you'd be excited....

However, in your excitement, you may have mixed up a few things.

As others pointed out, the ebook files are stored on your Kindle. Amazon only "backs up" ebooks you have purchased from them.

Amazon is clearly engaged in interstate commerce with respect to the Kindle, and it has removed a legally purchased file (property) from another's computer device (the Kindle.)

So, I wouldn't dismiss the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act so quickly. And yes, there may be other law which applies, as well.

Apparently, Amazon doesn't want to find out in court, and doesn't need the bad publicity, so they are changing their policy.

As to access authorization, you are interpreting it a bit too broadly: I can give remote access to a tech support person to fix my PC, but they cannot willfully delete my unrelated files. Similarly, I connect to my email service provider all the time, but they can't delete my emails, without authorization or a court order.

Anyway, this is good example why we should all support the Electronic Frontier Foundation and their attorneys.

[PKFFW]

I don't own a kindle so correct me if I'm wrong but.........

One morning you turn your kindle on and you turn whispernet on. By doing that you are essentially asking your kindle to sync with the Amazon database. Correct?

Now, Amazon has made a change on the database removing this book that you purchased from them. Correct?

Your kindle, syncs with the database and finds this book gone and so deletes it from your kindle just as you have asked it to do. Correct?

So, how exactly has Amazon reached out to your device and erased the content on it?

Cheers,
PKFFW

[tompe]

Originally Posted by PKFFW

I don't own a kindle so correct me if I'm wrong but.........

One morning you turn your kindle on and you turn whispernet on. By doing that you are essentially asking your kindle to sync with the Amazon database. Correct?

Now, Amazon has made a change on the database removing this book that you purchased from them. Correct?

Your kindle, syncs with the database and finds this book gone and so deletes it from your kindle just as you have asked it to do. Correct?

So, how exactly has Amazon reached out to your device and erased the content on it?

Cheers,
PKFFW

You have not given it the command to erase the book. If a books is not sold anymore it is removed from your database but not removed from the device. So Amazon when removing books have generated a special command that removes the book. And they have done that intentionally.

[Sonist]

Originally Posted by tompe

You have not given it the command to erase the book. If a books is not sold anymore it is removed from your database but not removed from the device. So Amazon when removing books have generated a special command that removes the book. And they have done that intentionally.

Duh...

[Alisa]

Originally Posted by tompe

You have not given it the command to erase the book. If a books is not sold anymore it is removed from your database but not removed from the device. So Amazon when removing books have generated a special command that removes the book. And they have done that intentionally.

Kind of. The explanation they gave when they said they were no longer going to delete books in this fashion is that it was a bit of poor planning as far as system design goes and that they are working on fixing it. Apparently the only use case they had for refunding a book purchase was a user-initiated return. So when they do a refund for a book, the system automatically deletes. They say they are going to separate this process so you can refund without deleting. So, yes, they issued a command to delete, but according to them it was tied into the process of refunding. Whether or not you believe that (seems plausible to me but I also innately distrust most corporations), the upside is they're saying this is not going to be the policy going forward. The hype and drama have lasted a lot longer than the problem itself.

[Kali Yuga]

Originally Posted by Shaggy

The change that Amazon makes to their database is irrelevant. When they sync with your kindle and delete eBooks you own from your physical device, that's what we're objecting to.

Yes, I noticed that. I've stated several times that it is perfectly legitimate to object to it. Here, I'm pretty much saying that what Amazon did is not illegal (and, separately, that a) it's not that big a deal, and b) other companies take very similar actions on a regular basis).

Originally Posted by Shaggy

I never said it was "unauthorized access" for them to get on your device.... However, I don't believe that Amazon has the right to deleted products which you legally own without your consent.

The products were not legally procured.

And if you accept that Amazon had access to the device, then on what basis are you stating that their actions are illegal? Gut feeling, perhaps?

For example, let's say I am an employee of a company in good standing, and I am granted remote access to the company's servers via a VPN. While working, I delete several files. Is this now an illegal act? Should I have asked my boss prior to deleting the files? Does every different type of file action require explicit permission?

Or, let's say I'm the office IT person, and I see that a user has violated company policy by putting MP3's on a file server, and I delete the files. Is this also illegal? Would it be illegal if the user paid for the MP3 files, and as such is that user's private property?

Or, let's say you purchase an antivirus software program. You run it, it detects a number of viruses on your computer, and deletes them. Is this application performing an illegal action?

Considering that Amazon already deletes data off of Kindles (namely magazine subscriptions), again I see the dislike (even though I do not share it), but I see no basis to regard their actions as illegal.

Originally Posted by Sonist

As others pointed out, the ebook files are stored on your Kindle. Amazon only "backs up" ebooks you have purchased from them.

I own one, I'm well aware of how it works, and you're misreading my comments and do not understand how the system works. Amazon is not just backing up your data; it's the primary synchronization point. Your account's database entries are used to push books to the various devices.

Originally Posted by Sonist

Amazon is clearly engaged in interstate commerce with respect to the Kindle, and it has removed a legally purchased file (property) from another's computer device (the Kindle.)

The file should never have been sold to you in the first place, ergo its legal status is at best questionable. At this time, no legitimate e-books were deleted remotely by Amazon. And while I agree that the "stolen property" concept is not a good fit, the fact remains that you did not have a legal right to the files.

As to "interstate commerce," maybe, though it's a bit of a stretch. You still have to deal with the fact that the access was fully authorized, though.

Originally Posted by Sonist

As to access authorization, you are interpreting it a bit too broadly: I can give remote access to a tech support person to fix my PC, but they cannot willfully delete my unrelated files. Similarly, I connect to my email service provider all the time, but they can't delete my emails, without authorization or a court order.

Actually, they can, and it happens all the time. Heck, on Friday a technician uninstalled multiple applications, altered my system's registry, and deleted files during a remote support session, while I supervised him. Other times, I've supervised remote techs who installed software, and in the process made significant revisions to the system and deleted files.

You might not want a remote tech to delete files, or the remote tech may not want to delete files, and doing so may increase the legal exposure of the technician, but there is certainly nothing illegal about it.

[PKFFW]

Originally Posted by tompe

You have not given it the command to erase the book. If a books is not sold anymore it is removed from your database but not removed from the device. So Amazon when removing books have generated a special command that removes the book. And they have done that intentionally.

My understanding of syncing is that the data on the devices are matched up.

When I sync my phone with my computer old numbers no longer on my computer database are erased, old appointments that have passed are erased, new numbers and appointments are entered.

Now, by signing the TOS with Amazon, are you not asking Amazon to manage, remotely, all Amazon related data on your kindle? And, by turning on whispernet, are you not asking Amazon to match up the data on your kindle with what it has on its' server?

Cheers,
PKFFW

[tompe]

Originally Posted by PKFFW

My understanding of syncing is that the data on the devices are matched up.

If I have read the descriptions of this given here that is not the case. A book can disappear so you cannot re-download it but it will still be on your device.

What seems to happen is that a set of command to be executed on the Kindle is generated when for example a change is done in the database at Amazon. So depending on what is changing different set of commands can be generated. So it is not a sync that is done. What is done is that the generated commands are executed and the effect can in some cases look like a sync.

[PKFFW]

Originally Posted by tompe

If I have read the descriptions of this given here that is not the case. A book can disappear so you cannot re-download it but it will still be on your device.

What seems to happen is that a set of command to be executed on the Kindle is generated when for example a change is done in the database at Amazon. So depending on what is changing different set of commands can be generated. So it is not a sync that is done. What is done is that the generated commands are executed and the effect can in some cases look like a sync.

Ok, that makes it clearer.

So in this case then it seems you agree to have Amazon generate commands in order to manage your Amazon related data remotely via its' server and when you activate whispernet those commands are executed. A command has been issued to delete this content and so it has.

I still don't really see how anyone can argue Amazon did something outside the TOS or illegal.

Cheers,
PKFFW

[krischik]

Originally Posted by tompe

If a books is not sold anymore it is removed from your database but not removed from the device.

But this too is an Amazon thing. beam-eBooks for example does not remove books from your library which they don't sell any more. But then beam has recently switched to DRM-free eBooks only. A good move btw.

Martin